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No. The answer is that change has to occur on a cultural level. I mentioned drinking in America as a show of "manlihood." That's a (terrible) cultural value in America, and there needs to be a shift away from that. We should already know that drinking 20 beers at a party and being able to drive home is not an indication of "manliness." (It might be an indicator of alcoholism though..)
The same is true about guns. The culture in the US currently considers killing someone who is trying to steal your stereo equipment as justifiable and plausible. But it's not. We're not in the "far west" anymore, and there are very few "bogeymen" out to get us. Instead of living in fear of our neighbor, we ought to start building bridges of social interaction with one another.
That would be a good start, imo.
Peace,
brian
brian, the utopia you seek, while noble, is unattainable. I understand your feelings about children aquiring guns from their parents. I believe in responsible, and safe gun ownership, and in fact I not only practice it, but I preach it. I truly do wish we lived in the world that you aspire to, but the fact is, we don't, and never will.. To assertain that all guns are evil and should be banned is naive and unrealistic. You talked about training criminals. You can't force someone to learn. I believe in gun education and responsible handling of a firearm, however I also know that there are no absolutes in life. Good luck with your tilting at windmills.
What needs to change is that people need to start looking for other ways to dealing with crime rather than by joining in the shooting..
And that's what we do. Using a gun for self defense is always a last resort - everybody that carries knows that. It's a shame that so many people are so uninformed and afraid of guns that they assume that anybody that would carry is "living in fear" and that many actually want to shoot someone.
It's pretty common knowledge that the US is much more violent than Western Europe or other developed areas that have stricter gun control laws.
This is often trotted out as "proof" gun control laws work. However, like most of the "Brady Bunch" type propaganda, it is based on half-truths. Take England for instance (since it is usually used as the premier example). England ALWAYS had a lower murder rate than the United States.
To demonstrate that gun control laws in England "work", it must be shown that the murder rate further dropped after gun control laws were implemented. They did not. In fact, in more recent years, after an almost total ban on firearm possession, the rate of violent crime increased dramatically in England.
And what was your answer as to why he shouldn't own a gun?
I'll give you one. the trash talk about all the damage he's capable of doing with it. The braggadocio indicating he's of the mental equivilant of a 6 year old.
The pandering comments from the camera operator who'se egging him on and his responses tell me that were he in basic training at any boot camp he'd have gotten one upside the ear and maybe not allowed anywhere near a weapon til after his fellow inductee's had graduated and moved on to their assigned postings leaving him behind to get another session!
Some more; if he's allowed onto a range, you'd think they'd have a range officer who'd walk over and tell him any further waving around of the weapon by turning away from the firing line with the weapon in his hand would result in his expulsion from the range. Tapping the loaded magazine on it's butt rather than it's back side to 'seat' the rounds within before insertion into the weapon tells me he's long on TV and short on actual.
Gun ownership comes with responsibilities, which would be characteristic of a mature person regardless of his/her age. Another "infantile" gun owner is not needed.
Preparing for an accident is not the same as preparing to shoot someone.
As for statistics, I don't have any, so don't hold your breath. However, I will say this: high school /shopping mall shooting sprees and kids getting killed at home with dad's pistol are things that can be prevented to a large degree. What needs to change is that people need to start looking for other ways to dealing with crime rather than by joining in the shooting..
Peace,
brian
Shootings from legal/legit firearms is around 2%, the rest are done by illegal firearms by criminals.
It must be nice to live in "Never Never Land", but most of us stopped believing in its existence after we grew up and realized some folks out there don't play by the rules. Of course, as a Christian, I believe with you in the existence of God...but I also know He helps those who help themselves and His Word provides many justifications for a person using force to defend themselves. And it is also true Jesus Christ said "turn the other cheek." But the context was along the lines of "a soft answer turns away wrath.". He never said stand there and get beat to death!
In any event, just a few random comments on some of your points:
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Originally Posted by ahigherway
Preparing for an accident is not the same as preparing to shoot someone.
This is a loaded and false contrasting comparrison. For the law-abiding armed citizen, keeping a firearm in the house for self-defense purposes is only being prepared -- as is the possession of a spare tire, fire-extinguisher, fire-insurance, etc. -- only being prepared for worst-case scenario in the event some kind of factor out of your control occurs (such as a flat-tire, fire, or somebody deciding it would be really cool to rape and kill your wife or daughter!).
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However, I will say this: high school /shopping mall shooting sprees and kids getting killed at home with dad's pistol are things that can be prevented to a large degree. What needs to change is that people need to start looking for other ways to dealing with crime rather than by joining in the shooting.
First of all, let's kill that goose (no pun intended!) about accidental shootings. More kids die each year by drowning in swimming pools than by accidental shootings. On a related tangent? Earlier I mentioned some of the "Brady Bunch" (i.e. Handgun Control Center) propaganda about non-applicable country by country crime rates. Well, this is another theme that the anti-gun people play off of by half-truths and emotions and mis-leading content.
For instance, back in the 90's there was a TV ad which showed a small child getting a gun out of a closet. Then, the screen went blank and there was a loud "BOOM". Then, there was a somber, dramatic, over-voice which said something like (not sure of the exact figures): "20 Children are killed each day by handguns."
The implication was that the innocent child had shot themself with their parents handgun and a similar thing was a common occurance. Problem was, again, it was all based on total BS. For one thing, the producers counted anyone under the age of 25 as "children." For another, it didn't mention that almost all of these so-called shootings were suicides, drug or gang-related, and in which cases of the latter, the guns were illegally obtained anyway and gun-control laws would not have prevented them!
So far as school and shopping mall shootings go? As RR pointed out, in every instance (for sure in schools) they occured in "Gun Free" areas. Funny thing, mass-killers don't obey those signs which say they can't have guns on the property. It is also important to mention that at least one school shooting (in Pearl, Mississippi) was stopped because the principal ran to his car and got his own gun and disarmed the shooter. Similar thing happened at Virginia Tech (I think it was but maybe somewhere else). That is, armed civilians brought it to a close.
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As I see it, people shouldn't have guns for protection. They're just plain dangerous.
So are cars, matches, gas stoves, scissors, stairs, or anything else if one doesn't know how to use them properly. *curious* Have you ever fired a gun in your life?
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And children have died because of playing with them. (And other kids have killed others using their parents' guns.)
See earlier comment.
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Does that mean that if there were no guns permitted that criminals would not have them? Of course they'd still have them. But there'd be fewer to go around.
How do you know this? This is naivety of the worst sort. For one thing (to use that expression again), to enforce a ban on guns among the civilian population, it would take an armed government force to do it. One of the foundations of freedom in this country is that the right of the people to be armed is a check upon the type tyranny that is inevitable if only the forces of government (military, police, etc) have the exclusive right to possess weapons.
Also, maybe you are one of the saints among us who would roll over and play dead in the face of a deadly threat by a criminal, but I am not willing to die, nor be unable to protect my loved ones, because of some very vauge, abstract, notion, of "less guns, less crime." It has not only been proven untrue, but it is also one of those utilitarian la-la land themes that do not take into the account the highly personal right of self-defense.
To put it bluntly? Even if it were true (but it isn't) that gun control worked and that less people would be murdered by criminals if the access could be more controlled? That doesn't mean jack-shlit if I am helpless in the face of a deadly threat to myself and/or family by some scumbag or group of them who get a thrill out of raping/killing.
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And rather than sending the double standard message of "don't kill, but kill if you have to," maybe the gov't would start to explore other options for controlling criminals.
You are cheating humanity out of something if you don't share with us what that measure would be that has not been tried before. Especially in the 60's and 70's.
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The same is true for punishment. Prison or parole is a terrible choice. There are MILLIONS of ways to work with criminals to reform them, but the gov't doesn't have the brains or desire or courage or whatever to implement them.
See above. What are they?
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Peace,
brian
Praying with you for peace! BUT? Be prepared for war!
How many times have we seen on the news how children have shot themselves with their parents' guns? I remember a few, don't know about you..
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Originally Posted by ahigherway
As I see it, people shouldn't have guns for protection. They're just plain dangerous. And children have died because of playing with them. (And other kids have killed others using their parents' guns.)
I don't have time to look it up again but I posted links last year to a report from the Center for Disease Control (aka CDC) which listed deaths by many different causes. If you remove the 17-25 year olds from the list which takes away the gang bangers then you are left with about 50 deaths a year from gun accidents. That number was much lower than accidental drownings, ATV accidents or automobile accidents. Based on those statistics and your concern for children's safety, we shouldn't let kids have any fun at all.
I grew up when there wasn't such a thing as a gun safe. My father's and grandfather's guns were stored in the open and loaded. I was told not to touch them. When I learned gun safety as a pre-teen, I was allowed to handle them but if I broke any rule I was punished. And this wasn't on some rural farm either. I grew up in a town of 7,000. I never heard or read a story of accidental shootings among kids. I don't think it was until college that I started seeing those type reports.
No. The answer is that change has to occur on a cultural level. I mentioned drinking in America as a show of "manlihood." That's a (terrible) cultural value in America, and there needs to be a shift away from that. We should already know that drinking 20 beers at a party and being able to drive home is not an indication of "manliness." (It might be an indicator of alcoholism though..)
It sounds like you don't know about American culture other than what you see on TV and the movies. I drink about 3 times a year. I had 2 drinks during the last holiday. Mainly because I can't go to out in public and drink because I would be breaking the law. It is illegal in this state to drink and carry a concealed firearm. On a personal level, it is stupid to do that and I wouldn't drink even it were legal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway
The same is true about guns. The culture in the US currently considers killing someone who is trying to steal your stereo equipment as justifiable and plausible. But it's not. We're not in the "far west" anymore, and there are very few "bogeymen" out to get us.
Again, you are wrong. There are specific instances when you can apply deadly force without charges being brought against you and it varies by state. Here in Mississippi, deadly force is justified when I fear for my life when another person or persons are committing a felony.
For example, if I wake up to someone in my house I can shoot them without asking about their intent. The law has made the assumption that they have already unlawfully entered my home and the worst possible scenario is about to occur.
Another example, if I am driving down the street and pull up to a stop sign. A man runs out and points a gun at me telling me to get out of the car. My car is an extension of my house and the brandishing of a weapon in my direction is a threat to my person. I can defend myself with appropriate force until there is no more threat.
A final example, I come home from work to find a local kid running from my house and down the street. I draw down and drop him with a single shot. I'm going to jail. There was no immediate threat to me. Your statement above about shootings over property crimes shows that you don't know what you are talking about.
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Originally Posted by ahigherway
Instead of living in fear of our neighbor, we ought to start building bridges of social interaction with one another.
One of the first times I had a long conversation with my neighbor, I was at the end of my driveway with a laser bore sight aligning the scopes on 4 different EBR's (evil black rifles). In New York, there would have been no conversation before the SWAT team descended on me and I was thrown in jail for years. Not only have my neighbor and I had many more gun conversations, he asked that I watch out for his wife and kids when he is away on work.
Neve was holding my breath, I knew what you said was BS from the beginning, we have proven it to you time and time again......
There is no doubt in my mind that people need to be more knowledgable about guns....and they need to teach their children the do's and do not's of guns.
I'll bet the parents of those children also said the same thinig as you are syaing right now....my kid does not even know I have a gun, so it will never happen to me....
Thats the problem, the guns are NOT the problem. Education is.
Take the guns away from law abiding citizens, and the only people who will have guns are criminals....
As for the spare tire....nope, you aer once agian wrong, you have the spare tire JUST IN CASE you have to use it.....
Just like I have NEVER used my spare tire, ever.....(of course saying that, i'll have a flat now).
I NEVER plan on shooting someone, but it's their just in-case....see that's your problem you cannot see the difference....I never plan to shoot someone, unlike you are suggesting....I also never plan on have a house fire either.....but I will protect my family, just like I have a security system, I protect my house, with insurance.....
Preparing to change a flat tire is not the same as preparing to shoot someone. At least not in my book.
Peace,
brian
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Of course, as a Christian, I believe with you in the existence of God...but I also know He helps those who help themselves and His Word provides many justifications for a person using force to defend themselves. And it is also true Jesus Christ said "turn the other cheek." But the context was along the lines of "a soft answer turns away wrath.". He never said stand there and get beat to death! 
It is also important to mention that at least one school shooting (in Pearl, Mississippi) was stopped because the principal ran to his car and got his own gun and disarmed the shooter. Similar thing happened at Virginia Tech (I think it was but maybe somewhere else). That is, armed civilians brought it to a close. 
