Becoming a "second rate world power"; how bad would it really be? (Al Gore, Putin)

[chielgirl]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

The bigger threat to the US is that almost half the people here are poor.

How about we become a second-rate world power, adjust our military expenditures accordingly, invest in education, and repay the debt? That would be fine with me.

^^^
Truth. This.

Let's do it gracefully instead of declining like a teenager lashing out.

[GregW]

2nd world nation rant
GTO lover - Your report or suggestion is why we, including Australia and Canada if they are foolish enough, are headed down the economic rat hole of borrowing to feed a rapacious military industrial complex. This complex of bankers, industrialists and high paid workers are breaking the rest of us and our economy with their overpriced toys.

What do we have to defend? A bunch of greedy sheiks that hate us anyway? Either or both sides of the Mideast conflict. Which one? The Arabs vrs. Israelis? Islamic vrs Islamic? Saudi’s vrs everyone else? The financiers that own the oil fields? The shippers that flood our markets with Chinese second rate junk? None of these people are worth either a dollar or an American soldier’s life. None! Australia’s oil supply from Southeast Asia? The European Union’s access to Russian oil? Neither of these is worth defending.

All we are spending this money for is to make the world’s financial class ever richer and richer while the rest of us work for less for longer hours and pay higher taxes. We are being robbed and we believe it makes us stronger. It does not. It makes us weaker as we stop producing things that make our economy stronger. We build bombs not busses.

We do not need, nor does anyone else, F-35 Boondoggles, or super carriers or even more submarines or attack helicopters. We need to rebuild our bridges, water works, roads, streets, schools and all the other things that make for efficient businesses. We need to support Research and Development by expanding the space program not cutting it back. We need a Universal Health Care system so we have a healthy workforce; not a sick one unable to afford care. We need more manufacturing jobs so skilled tradesmen can find decent paying work along with the tariffs that make these wages economical.

We need less military to become a stronger society and country. Besides if anyone attacks our country we can still obliterate them and have bombs ready for the next set of fools.

[WestCobb]

Originally Posted by BruSan

I fully expected you to disagree with that very response as you've trotted that, or something like it, out every time you get a response to: "the others had better start paying their share" bullc**p!

Either you're young or have a very selective memory, Bru. Once upon time, not too long ago, there was an expansionist empire on the fringe of Europe that desperately wanted to bring western Europe into its sphere of influence. Western Europe wasn't particularly keen on the idea, and they had a very rich and generous ally who spent a lot of money to make sure they remained autonomous. That was then; this is now. As an American, I propose we spend less money and work with our natural allies as equals. You don't like that idea?

[BruSan]

Originally Posted by GregW

2nd world nation rant
GTO lover - Your report or suggestion is why we, including Australia and Canada if they are foolish enough, are headed down the economic rat hole of borrowing to feed a rapacious military industrial complex. This complex of bankers, industrialists and high paid workers are breaking the rest of us and our economy with their overpriced toys.

What do we have to defend? A bunch of greedy sheiks that hate us anyway? Either or both sides of the Mideast conflict. Which one? The Arabs vrs. Israelis? Islamic vrs Islamic? Saudi’s vrs everyone else? The financiers that own the oil fields? The shippers that flood our markets with Chinese second rate junk? None of these people are worth either a dollar or an American soldier’s life. None! Australia’s oil supply from Southeast Asia? The European Union’s access to Russian oil? Neither of these is worth defending.

All we are spending this money for is to make the world’s financial class ever richer and richer while the rest of us work for less for longer hours and pay higher taxes. We are being robbed and we believe it makes us stronger. It does not. It makes us weaker as we stop producing things that make our economy stronger. We build bombs not busses.

We do not need, nor does anyone else, F-35 Boondoggles, or super carriers or even more submarines or attack helicopters. We need to rebuild our bridges, water works, roads, streets, schools and all the other things that make for efficient businesses. We need to support Research and Development by expanding the space program not cutting it back. We need a Universal Health Care system so we have a healthy workforce; not a sick one unable to afford care. We need more manufacturing jobs so skilled tradesmen can find decent paying work along with the tariffs that make these wages economical.

We need less military to become a stronger society and country. Besides if anyone attacks our country we can still obliterate them and have bombs ready for the next set of fools.

There ya go! All those young lives wasted in nearly every conflict you've been involved in since before vietnam; who knows what those men and women might have contributed to building your country's strength at something other than the sacrifce to military brinksmanship..

[Bideshi]

Originally Posted by HurricaneDC

In another thread I saw a person mention something about the US becoming a "second-rate world power" like the UK. And it got me thinking... how bad could that actually be?

It could be very bad without a first-rate world power as an ally.

[GalileoSmith]

Originally Posted by HurricaneDC

In another thread I saw a person mention something about the US becoming a "second-rate world power" like the UK. And it got me thinking... how bad could that actually be?

Most people in the UK seem to enjoy the same standard of living that we enjoy. They have cell phones, computers, running water, electricity, etc. Yes, they've even got McDonalds and Starbucks and Chipotle! I get the feeling that a lot of people think anywhere that's not the US is some sort of backwards dystopia, but a lot of countries really aren't that different from us in terms of standards of living. Hell, some are better.

Thoughts?

The only time I'm 2nd is when I'm not finishing lower than 2nd. It's really great. Not much is expected of me so the pressure is off. It's assumed that I'm incapable of leading the charge, figuratively speaking, so I'm never asked to take the reins. Just the other day my ladyfriend informed me that she would be busy and so I ought to decorate our Christmas tree on my own. I then asked, "Do you think I can decorate it correctly?" After a short pause, she admitted I probably couldn't. She excused me from the chore, which allowed me to play a video game and visit internet porn sites.

Hasn't there been countries in turmoil or in need of some kind of assistance who have complained because the U.S. did not come to the rescue? A 2nd rate power won't be saddled with such expectations. Which, in a manner of speaking, leaves more time to play video games and visit internet porn sites.

[GTOlover]

I agree GregW that we need to spend money fixing up our roads and getting the Economy back up but Canada is paying the price for letting our Military sit for 20 years and not modrenize only after the 9/11 attacks and deployment to afghanistan where we had jungle comeo and soft top jeeps did we realize that we need to upgrade and modrenize our whole military from top to bottom.


By 2006 We did just that and it cost alot of money but then again spending money to make sure our troops have the best stuff there is to work with is worth it.. when it comes to the men and Women in the armed forces putting their lives on the line for their country and to help our allies making darn sure they have the best of everything is more important than the cost of it


The only 2 things left for us to modrenize for the 21st century is our Airforce and Navy and to be honest we do need (SSN) fast attack subs because diesel-electric and air-independent propulsion (AIP)
but we need Nuclear (SSN) because can travel at high speeds over vast distances and are limited only by the endurance of their crews. Arctic vessels can operate for months independent of fuel supplies.


The fact that they will be used 99% of the time inn the arctic rules out Diesel-electric subs since they cannot stay submerged for extended periods of time and are limitd by how much fuel they have interms of Range and We have the largest coast to patrol and We rely on You guys to patrol it and that is not fair and with Russia down there travelling freely through our sovereign waters... It shows we need to have a strong presence down there and if Canada works together with the USN on patrolling the arctic it will help keep it secure and take somer of the burden off of the US..

I belive we should pull are own weight because it is unfair to all stick all the burdon on the USN and American taxpayers. It is something we would have to do anyways if we were not as lucky to live next to such great allies and neighbhors. I would rather our countries work together like we do with NORAD and share the load of protecting North America under the arctic and to do that we need Nuclear subs.

[GTOlover]

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress today of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Iraq for 18 F-16IQ aircraft and associated equipment, parts, weapons, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $2.3 billion.


The Government of Iraq has requested a possible sale of:

• - 18 F-16IQ aircraft,
• - 24 F100PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines,
• - 120 LAU-129/A Common Rail Launchers,
• - 24 APG-68(V)9 radar sets,
• - 19 M61 20mm Vulcan Cannons,
• - 100 AIM-9L/M-8/9 SIDEWINDER Missiles,
• - 150 AIM-7M-F1/H SPARROW Missiles
• - 50 AGM-65D/G/H/K MAVERICK Air to Ground Missiles,
• - 200 GBU-12 PAVEWAY II Laser Guided Bomb Units (500 pound),
• - 50 GBU-10 PAVEWAY II Laser Guided Bomb Units (2000 pound),
• - 50 GBU-24 PAVEWAY III Laser Guided Bomb Units (2000 pound),
• - 22 ALQ-211 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS), or Advanced Countermeasures Electronic System (ACES) (ACES includes the ALQ-187 Electronic Warfare System and AN/ALR-93 Radar Warning Receiver),
• - 20 AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe (AIFF) Systems (without Mode IV) 20 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/ Inertial Navigation
• Systems (INS), (Standard Positioning Service (SPS) commercial code only),
• - 20 AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER or AN/AAQ-28 LITENING Targeting Pods,
• - 4 F-9120 Advanced Airborne Reconnaissance Systems (AARS) or DB-110 Reconnaissance Pods (RECCE),
• - 22 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispensing Systems (CMDS),
• - 20 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs),
• - 120 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS),
• - 20 AN/ARC-238 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio Systems,
• - 10,000 PGU-27A/B Ammunition,
• - 30,000 PGU-28 Ammunition,
• - 230 MK-84 2000 lb General Purpose Bombs, and
• - 800 MK-82 500lb General Purpose Bombs.

Also included: LAU-117 Maverick Launchers,site survey support equipment, Joint Mission Planning System, Ground Base d Flight Simulator, tanker support, ferry services, Cartridge Actuated


Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD), repair and return, modification kits, spares and repair parts, construction, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering, and logistics support services, ground based flight simulator, and other related elements of logistics support.

The estimated cost is $2.3 billion.

The proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by enhancing the capability of Iraq's Air Force. The proposed aircraft and accompanying weapon systems will greatly enhance Iraq’s interoperability with the U.S. and other NATO nations, making it a more valuable partner in an important area of the world, as well as supporting Iraq’s legitimate need for its own self-defense.

The proposed sale will allow the Iraqi Air Force to modernize its air force by acquiring Western-interoperable fighter aircraft, thereby enabling Iraq to support both its own air defense needs and coalition operations. The country will have no difficulty absorbing these aircraft into its armed forces.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region


Read more: Iraq: F-16 Fighter Aircraft Sale | Air Force News at DefenseTalk

See one thing that makes no sense to me is why on Earth would it make sense to sell Iraq 16 F-16's with a buunch of Missilies and Bombs included in the purchase.


I mean if we had to sell them some jets why not the 1960's F-104 STARFIGHTER AKA the Lawn Dart

[WestCobb]

Originally Posted by GalileoSmith

The only time I'm 2nd is when I'm not finishing lower than 2nd. It's really great. Not much is expected of me so the pressure is off. It's assumed that I'm incapable of leading the charge, figuratively speaking, so I'm never asked to take the reins. Just the other day my ladyfriend informed me that she would be busy and so I ought to decorate our Christmas tree on my own. I then asked, "Do you think I can decorate it correctly?" After a short pause, she admitted I probably couldn't. She excused me from the chore, which allowed me to play a video game and visit internet porn sites.

Hasn't there been countries in turmoil or in need of some kind of assistance who have complained because the U.S. did not come to the rescue? A 2nd rate power won't be saddled with such expectations. Which, in a manner of speaking, leaves more time to play video games and visit internet porn sites.

Which internet porn sites will we visit with the extra time we have on our hands once we cease being the West's primary enforcer?

[edwardianlady]

Not bad for me I am tired of being the worlds policeman.Standards would remain the same most likely.