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Old 08-30-2007, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
1,610 posts, read 4,655,650 times
Reputation: 1473

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About the time our original thirteen states adopted the new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,500 years earlier:

“A democracy is always temporary in nature. It simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will exist only until the voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority will always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the treasury. As a result, every democracy will eventually collapse due to loose fiscal policy. The collapse is always followed by a dictatorship.
“From the beginning of history, the average lifespan of the world's democracies has been about two hundred years. During those two hundred years, those nations have always progressed through the following stages:

1. From oppression by the government to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence on the government; and
8. From dependence back to oppression."

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamlin University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, studied the 2000 Presidential election and came up with the following statistics:

Number of States won by Gore: 20
Number of States won by Bush: 30

Square miles of land won by Gore: 580,000
Square miles of land won by Bush: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by Gore: 127 million
Population of counties won by Bush: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1

With the exception of the last statistic, those numbers sound like a fairly typical election in which one candidate won and the other lost. But a careful study of the demographics of the areas won by each candidate reveals something interesting. Most of the counties won by Bush were counties in which the majority of the residents were hard working, tax-paying citizens. Those counties had few or no residents living on welfare.
Most of the counties won by Gore were counties in which a significant percentage, if not a majority, of the residents were living in government-owned tenements and were dependent on various forms of government welfare.
Olson believes the United States is now in the "complacency and apathy" stage of Professor Tyler's description of democracy. By 2002, some forty percent of the nation's population had already reached the "dependence on the government" stage.
The government is now talking about granting amnesty and citizenship to twenty million foreign invaders called “illegal immigrants.” When they start voting we can say goodbye to our American democracy.
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Roanoke VA
2,032 posts, read 6,567,991 times
Reputation: 915
A nation must have secure borders. The U.S. is no longer a nation in that
none is enforcing the law so how long do we have until we cease to be a nation? My scenario in about 10 years is that the American economy will lose its competitiveness with the rest of the world due to our healthcare mess,
baby boomer drain on services, educational collapse, etc etc. At that point,
politically we will all depend more on the government for assistance voting for a socialist type system. The wealthy would've left anyway with their tax-free
corporations and set up shop in a new "upstart" country like Brazil and London will become the financial center of the world. There is already talk by some republicans that New Yorks' days are numbered as the financial capital.
Its a scary scenario but when you go to a financial advisor now and ask "where should I put my money to invest"? they all tell you not to invest in U.S., think globally. That should tell you something is about to change!
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,712 posts, read 8,144,579 times
Reputation: 1052
I just love this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrover View Post
Square miles of land won by Gore: 580,000
Square miles of land won by Bush: 2,427,000
...
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1

A square mile of dirt doesn't vote, or is it different where you're from?

The southern states have the worst murder rates per 100,000 of population. Maybe your "scale of aggregation" is leading you astray in your analysis.
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:34 AM
 
2,506 posts, read 8,177,744 times
Reputation: 851
First off, its Hamline University.
Secondly, The urban population votes Democratic, rural areas are more conservative. It has been like this for fifty years. Am I to be amazed that rural America didn't have as high a murder rate? I'm sorry, I live in one of the "dependant" counties, and a half-million people in Hennepin County don't live in Section 8 Housing. We are doing quite well for ourselves. It would be my bet that the Urbanized, Democratic counties are also some of the wealthiest in the nation. Places like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles drive the economies of this nation. Where are the headquarters for the mortgage lender for the farm? And I certainly hope that you aren't claiming that the Counties won by Bush don't need government assistance. The prairies of the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas have an elderly population who subside on Social Security and Medicare. What about all the farmers who make their money off ethanol? Something will change, but it is caused by Globalization and the consumption of resources by other nations, notably China and India. Last I remembered, Bush was pushing NAFTA, CAFTA, free trade with China and global Laissez-Faire economics. So instead of looking at the relatively small amount of money spent on "government dependence", look at the trillions that go into the infrastructures, economies and consumer goods of other nations. (100% of Western Europeans are dependant on their respective governments, and the Euro is pushing out the dollar as the preferred monetary basis for nations, their democracies are stronger than ever and they took their economies with them.) The worst part though, is what we will look like when our system collapses. Even nations who lose their power, still retain a certain amount of comfort and power. Britain is no longer the British Empire, but it's citizens have healthcare, very good infrastructure, a good economy, a upper class. When America collapses, its rich will move abroad, we will depend on cars we can't afford, we won't be able to build trains because our steel is made in China, we won't have healthcare, technologies, et. cetera. We will have land, ticky-tacky houses and a half-dozen cities capable of sustaining themselves. Rome created the Dark Ages for Europe, we will do the same for North America.
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,712 posts, read 8,144,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnehahapolitan View Post
The worst part though, is what we will look like when our system collapses. Even nations who lose their power, still retain a certain amount of comfort and power. Britain is no longer the British Empire, but it's citizens have healthcare, very good infrastructure, a good economy, a upper class. When America collapses, its rich will move abroad, we will depend on cars we can't afford, we won't be able to build trains because our steel is made in China, we won't have healthcare, technologies, et. cetera. We will have land, ticky-tacky houses and a half-dozen cities capable of sustaining themselves. Rome created the Dark Ages for Europe, we will do the same for North America.

Where would the American rich be the most likely to move? Where would they be allowed to plunder an entire continent as they have in North America? Maybe South America.
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,407 posts, read 7,483,242 times
Reputation: 1198
After 8 years of Bush taking away individual liberties and riding roughshod over the Constitution I would say we are fast arriving at the "oppression by the government" phase.
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,164 posts, read 23,036,674 times
Reputation: 15259
billy4:

Please list the individual liberties which Bush has taken away from you. You may use agate type if you wish.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,407 posts, read 7,483,242 times
Reputation: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
billy4:

Please list the individual liberties which Bush has taken away from you. You may use agate type if you wish.
How about his trampling on the 4th and 5th amendments of our beloved Constitution?

The Patriot Act allows the government to take records and belongings from us (anybody) with out any appeal process. We can be charged and locked up without even knowing what the supposed infractions are. No due process. I could be getting wiretapped right now for my critical comments of Bush in this forum, and I would have no legal recourse. How about Bozo the Gonzalez trying to argue the Constitution does not provide individuals with the right to habeus corpus?

How about the Guantanamo Bay detainees - over 50% of the guys have yet to be connected with anything and yet they continue to be locked up. Until when, the "war on terror" ends? Sure they are Muslims so they probably deserve it anyway (), but could I suggest this discarding of the Geneva convention could also have negative implications for U.S. soldiers and other Americans that live abroad?

Bush is destroying everything that supposedly made our country a neat place to begin with.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:16 AM
 
2,506 posts, read 8,177,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
billy4:

Please list the individual liberties which Bush has taken away from you. You may use agate type if you wish.
Thats the point, he doesn't take them from one person. An attack on the liberties of one, is an attack on those of us all. When The President abolishes Habeas Corpus by sending prisoners to Cuba, he is undermining civil liberties as a whole. When Pres. Bush taps phonelines on international calls, it is a threat to my calls. When he is reading someone else's library book, he is also reading over my shoulder. When he purposefully undercuts the Geneva Conventions, he makes war even less civilized. Not just for Terrorists, but in precedent for future conflict. So he has not taken from me anymore than Billy, you, or anyone else.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:18 AM
 
2,506 posts, read 8,177,744 times
Reputation: 851
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
Where would the American rich be the most likely to move? Where would they be allowed to plunder an entire continent as they have in North America? Maybe South America.
I don't know if this is a rebuttal, or banter. South America has never been plundered (except for taking gold), it began as backwards as it remains.
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