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Most doctors I know did not go into medicine for the money, believe it or not, many are very intelligent people, who like the challenges of attending medical school. Suren the money is a benefit.
Doctors earn their pay. Believe me. They work with people who make far less than they do, and yet, they are responsible for verifying that others did their job correctly, so they can do their job correctly. An example of this actually happened recently...a patient was all prepped for a complicated surgery on his left leg. The surgical site was scrubbed and prepped...by a CNA, an LPN, and verified by an RN surgical nurse. The doctor decided to review the chart one more time...and found out the wrong leg had been prepped. He had the correct site prepped.
So, if a doctor makes 10x more than the others on the team, he is probably worth it. Especially if it was your surgery.
Healthcare costs in the US are 2-3 times higher than any other developed country and yet we have the worst healthcare outcomes.
So?
When you close 60% of your hospitals and eliminate the Hospital Cartels, then your health care system would be moving closer to the European health care system.
And then you're costs won't be 2-3 times higher. And then you'll actually be able to make a comparison between the US and Europe, instead of contrasting.
Some of you seem to have tremendous difficulties with Compare/Contrast, so I offer this web-site to bring all of you up to speed: Comparing and Contrasting
You compare things that are similar, but you contrast things that are different.
Because the US uses the Hospital Model, and Europe (sans the UK) uses the Clinic Model, you cannot, by definition make comparisons between US health care and European health care.
The only thing you can do is contrast them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009
. The average physician at the VA sees about 10 patients per day- THE WHOLE DAY. That is socialism vs capitalism.
That is stupid and has nothing to do with Socialism/Captialism.
Get your secretary to print you out a patient schedule. You'll see entries on it like this:
Jan 04, 2012 1:00 PM (20 MINUTES) CIN OTC BAY 2
Jan 06, 2012 1:00 PM (20 MINUTES) CIN OTC BAY 2
Jan 09, 2012 11:00 AM (20 MINUTES) CIN OTC BAY 2
Jan 10, 2012 11:30 AM (30 MINUTES) CIN MHC PSYCHIATRIST 7
Jan 11, 2012 1:00 PM (20 MINUTES) CIN OTC BAY 2
Jan 12, 2012 2:00 PM (15 MINUTES CIN ORTHO IND
Jan 16, 2012 1:00 PM (20 MINUTES) CIN OTC BAY 2
Jan 17, 2012 9:30 AM (30 MINUTES) CIN DIA/MRI MRI 1
Jan 18, 2012 10:00 PM (90 MINUTES) CIN NEURO EMG
Jan 23, 2012 10:00 AM (20 MINUTES) CIN OTC BAY 2
Jan 23, 2012 11:00 AM (10 MINUTES) CIN NEURO IND
Jan 25, 2012 1:00 PM (20 MINUTES) CIN OTC BAY 2
That's my appointment schedule for the coming weeks. Now you won't look so stupid. Occupational Therapy is in 20 minute blocks and they often see 2 at a time (they can double-book me because of the nature of my treatment). My psychiatrist has 30 minute blocks and she sees 16 patients per day, not 10. Orthopedic is 15 minute blocks and she sees 32 patients per day, not 10. The MRI varies, but in this case for me it is a 30 minute block and there isn't nothing you can do about that. You can't make a machine go faster than it can, so what the hell does Socialism/Capitalism have to do with it? Are you going to make the absurd proposition that a Socialist MRI machine performs slower than a Capitalist MRI machine?
An EMG takes about 90 minutes, and there's no way to speed that up either (although I am willing to entertain suggestions because getting stuck with needles and having electric current run through doesn't tickle). My neurosurgeon has 10 minute blocks and he sees 20 patients in the half-day he is here, and who knows how many he sees over at University Hospital (where he actually works).
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay
"Not-for-Profit" is simply a tax designation. Every industry is for profit or it would not continue to exist.
Well, some people can't seem to grasp the concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavaturaccioli
Yes. Let's pay doctors, nurses, technologists, and administrative personnel in smiles and rainbows. That'll work.
That's too expensive. Give them hugs or play patriotic music or something.
"Not-for-Profit" is simply a tax designation. Every industry is for profit or it would not continue to exist.
True. Kaiser Permanente for example made $5.7 billion in profit since 2009.
The non-profit designation is meaningless. Its a legal form of tax evasion so Kaiser doesn't have to pay federal taxes on all the billions the company overcharges people to use their crummy HMO plans. They get away with murder.
Just one of many large corporations that gets away with tax evasion.
So much of the news and politics in the last year has been focused on the "rising costs of health care".......but, it doesn't seem like any of the debate focuses on WHY healthcare has become so expensive.....
o
rents/leases have gone up
electricity has gone up
property taxes have gone up
supplies have gone up
min wage has gone up
cleaning (sanitary) service has gone up
all add to the cost of health care
the average hospital spends over 400k a month just on electricity...that's nearly 5 million a year just to power the building
when a doctor charges you 200 dollars its not 200 dollars going into his pocket..he/she has to pay rent/lease/mortgage, has to pay for utilities, has to pay the help(nurse/admin/recept), has to pay for EQUIPMENT and supplies
1)Healthcare costs in the US are 2-3 times higher than any other developed country and 2)yet we have the worst healthcare outcomes. .
not quite
1. yes our costs are higher..but then again our cost of living is higher...the average RN in europe makes 18-22k EURO (about 24-28k in american dollars)...yet the average american RN makes between 45k-78k (depending on region) here in the usa
2.our outcomes (diagnosis and TREATMENT, and RECOVERY) is some of the BEST in the world
a) we rank in the top 10 of RECOVERY from cancer
b)American women have a 63 percent chance of living at least five years after a cancer diagnosis, compared to 56 percent for European women.
c)American men have a five-year survival rate of 66 percent — compared to only 47 percent for European men.
d)Among European countries, only Sweden has an overall survival rate for men of more than 60 percent.
e)For women, only three European countries (Sweden, Belgium and Switzerland) have an overall survival rate of more than 60 percent.
those(b-e) figures reflect the care available to all Americans, not just those with private health coverage. Great Britain, known for its 50-year-old government-run, universal health care system, fares worse than the European average: British men have a five-year survival rate of only 45 percent; women, only 53 percent.
But what about Canada???
a)For women, the average survival rate for all cancers is 61 percent in the United States, compared to 58 percent in Canada.
b)For men, the average survival rate for all cancers is 57 percent in the United States, compared to 53 percent in Canada.
In the United States, 85 percent of women aged 25 to 64 years have regular PAP smears, compared with 58 percent in Great Britain.The same is true for mammograms; in the United States, 84 percent of women aged 50 to 64 years get them regularly — a higher percentage than in Australia, Canada or New Zealand, and far higher than the 63 percent of British women.
which country has the highest cancer rate (cases not recovery)...denmark..they are the SICKEST (in terms of cancer) in the world
Labor costs have little to do with the cost of health care. I posted an excellent article on the recent health insurance bill and why health care is expensive in this country. Many doctors and nurses are actually underpaid and under-appreciated for the work they do. Plus, making something a "not for profit" entity doesn't mean that the entity doesn't make money, it just has to do with distribution of net profits in bonus, which usually don't go workers anyway. Many hospitals are already not-for-profit. The health care situation won't improve in this country until people start looking at the real reasons why health care is so expensive and stop blaming the people who provide health care.
Still have the article?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid
True. Kaiser Permanente for example made $5.7 billion in profit since 2009.
The non-profit designation is meaningless. Its a legal form of tax evasion so Kaiser doesn't have to pay federal taxes on all the billions the company overcharges people to use their crummy HMO plans. They get away with murder.
Just one of many large corporations that gets away with tax evasion.
With Non-profit groups, that "profit" has to go somewhere, but it really only matters if they file for tax-exemption, and getting that means following the IRS' rules. And, of course, non-profit means re-investing into the company, or you don't get your nice tax break.
Also, you're citing a number, so source it. Where did that 5.7 bil figure come from?
1. yes our costs are higher..but then again our cost of living is higher...the average RN in europe makes 18-22k EURO (about 24-28k in american dollars)...yet the average american RN makes between 45k-78k (depending on region) here in the usa
Um, in a word, no. You'll find that most comparisons of costs adjust for costs of living, they are PPP. Also, countries with a much higher cost of living and higher salaries such as Norway still have much lower medical costs.
Source: Uwe Reinhardt.
Note something interesting here: Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland all run UHC through for-profit insurance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero
2.our outcomes (diagnosis and TREATMENT, and RECOVERY) is some of the BEST in the world
Once again, no.
The USA has the worst amendable mortality in the developed world. It is estimated that if the quality of American care matched the top 3 nations, one hundred thousand Americans who die each year would have survived.
It is true that the US performs well in cancer survival. Even without the blatant cherry-picking. However, a health care system has to deal with everything, not just cancer. Using that alone as evidence that the system is preforming well is like a kid failing 10th grade who notes that his maths grade is better than a few of his peers.
So much of the news and politics in the last year has been focused on the "rising costs of health care".......but, it doesn't seem like any of the debate focuses on WHY healthcare has become so expensive.....
first, think about the doctor before he actually becomes a doctor..his motives for wanting to become a doctor are important because if all a person really is after is a big paycheck the quality of the care after the person becomes a doctor may not be what the world needs at all....then think about how much money the person invests in becoming a doctor (higher education costs, basic cost of living, and then the emergency happenings you did not plan on happening - ie car wrecks).
Now that being said, think about what you personally are passionate about, does it co-inside with your job?
shouldn't it?
And when you think about your health do you want your doctor to be a person who is motivated mostly by money? Its kinda like when you take your car to a repair shop and they tell you the car needs this and this and this plus it wouldn't be safe to let you leave the repair shop with your such and such in the extremely poor condition it is in, so the bill is astronomical, and you barely understand what the mechanic said....he knows things you don't, and the mechanic will always get your money because of this ....
is it MORAL to be a doctor and take advantage (making people have to pay to be healthy) of the ignorance of others?
Maybe a social change should devalue money and start putting more value on being passionate at what you do for a living, and taking care of your brother as you do for yourself.........because in the end, what really matters is not MONEY....
Most doctors finish med school in large debt. When u lay dying of an injury most people will not care what the doctor charges you.
Take in his mal practice insurance payments , equipment . Nurses insurance forms and doctors get payed for being a professional .
As I layed dying from a car accident, I really did not care what I had to pay her. I do know she saved my life.
She did so in an emergency room without knowing a. Thing about my life.
If American health care is so bad why do people come here to get treatment
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