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I think I simply disagree with the idea that sex is always "forced" on children or animals. Many have been "conditioned" to behave "consenually" (whatever that means) to behave in such as way. And i say that as someone who works specifically with sexually abused children. You would be suprised at the fact with some children that although many were abused initially, their current behaviors demonstrate "consenual" enactment on their own behalf with other "partners." It's an extremely complex pathology that isn't as cut and dry as some are making it out to be. The same is true with animals. You can initially condition an animal by abusing it sexually, but it can demonstrate consenual-like behaviors of engaging in sex from there on after.
So, once a child has been raped enough times, it is no longer rape, because the repeated rapes have "conditioned" them to behave consensually?
You can train a child -and an animal - to accept forced sex, but that doesn't make it consensual. Pretty cut and dried to me...
I was raped for 11 years as a child, so I'm pretty familiar with that whole complex dynamic.
It's a line I wouldn't want to come close to crossing. And it's a line I wouldn't advocate others to come close to crossing. Maybe you and I can understand the complexities of that, but many adults can't, and wouldn't know the difference between a child who is consenting and their own mind convincing them that the child is consenting. More than one of my abusers convinced themselves in their own minds that I was somehow consenting when I was not, and it would be hard to differentiate that from someone who was initially abused who then went on to consent to sex with adults when they themselves were still underage. Plus, I question the emotional and psychological effects of consenting to adult sex as a child, and also fear the risk of how quickly that could turn into an abusive relationship. Socially and culturally, adults have power over children, and especially if a child asked for sex from an adult, who grew to like it, that adult could bribe the child with resources down the road and it could quickly become non-consensual. Way too much gray area and complexity IMO, so for practical purposes, I consider children as incapable of consent with adults. I also have to wonder how much "demonstrating consenting-like behaviors" is actually consenting. How dissociated is the person? Are they flashbacking and triggering? There were a few times when I was acting out earlier abusive situations and a new person witnessing that took that to mean giving consent. But I wasn't consenting--I was reenacting. Why is the person engaging in "consent-like" behavior? Are they doing that because their self-esteem has been completely blown out by a long history of abuse, and all they value in themselves now is their sex appeal? Does that really count as "giving consent"? Dangerous territory, IMO.
Thanks for sharing, and I agree. Interesting that you bought up your experiences of reenactment being mistaking for consenual reaction. Point well taken. But I must say, that with some...hell many or most...it is a truly traumatizing experience. However, for some odd reason, for a few of them out there--it isn't. The after effects will vary from one individual to next.
And not to hijack the topic, my underscoring point was to say that even by using an example in the smallest of margins, consensual behavior by two individuals isn't necessarily something that should be tolerable.
So, once a child has been raped enough times, it is no longer rape, because the repeated rapes have "conditioned" them to behave consensually?
You can train a child -and an animal - to accept forced sex, but that doesn't make it consensual. Pretty cut and dried to me...
negative. For one sexual abuse isn't always necessarily "rape" or penetration. Second, in some cases, children (and I use that loosely as I am refering to teenagers) can be abused, and still initiate sexual acts with their abusers due to their upbringing or "conditioning." So no, it isn't always as cut and dry. As unpleasent as that may sound, I wouldn't necessarily refer that non-consenual behavior either.
And just to finish up, I will no longer hijack the thread and turn this into a discussion about child abuse.
Thanks for sharing, and I agree. Interesting that you bought up your experiences of reenactment being mistaking for consenual reaction. Point well taken. But I must say, that with some...hell many or most...it is truly a truly traumatizing experience. However, for some odd reason, for others it isn't. The after effects will vary from one individual to next.
And not to hijack the topic, my underscoring point was to say that even in the smallest of margins, consensual behavior by two individuals isn't necessarily something that should be tolerable.
Honestly, I don't know anyone that was sexually abused that wasn't traumatized by it. And I know a lot of people with that kind of history. I seem to attract them like moths to a lightbulb, lol. The only variation I see is in the severity of their traumatized symptoms. Some have full-blown PTSD, some are "just" emotionally crippled in their relationships even if they don't have the flashbacks and hyper-viligance to boot. Some people became abusers themselves.
There is such a huge difference between consensual and non-consensual sex. I don't see how you can work in the profession you say you do and not understand the worlds of difference between two men or two women that consensually have sex and any combination of people where non-consensual sexual acts take place. How can you not see it? It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you possibly lump consensual same-sex relations and consensual incestuous relations with non-consensual acts that literally can mess a person up so bad that they have the same psychological effects as a soldier exposed to combat?
There are nights I don't sleep at all because of what I've been through non-consensually. And yet I am in a consensual relationship with someone of the same sex. Being with her is more healing than any kind of therapy, medication, EMDR, CBT, and other crap I've gone through to treat my PTSD. How can you possibly say that is at all alike? I just don't understand.
Rape and sexual abuse are awful. A loving relationship is a beautiful thing. Why shouldn't we be teaching our children about the latter?
I know I have gotten so up, close, and personal. But I want people to see what they are actually saying when they say that homosexuality is wrong, or a sin, and make these absurd analogies to rape/child molestation/bestiality/etc. I think the only reason people can have that kind of opinion is because it's an abstraction. Maybe if they see it in a more concrete format, and put a face to it, they will realize what they're actually saying.
Honestly, I don't know anyone that was sexually abused that wasn't traumatized by it. And I know a lot of people with that kind of history. I seem to attract them like moths to a lightbulb, lol. The only variation I see is in the severity of their traumatized symptoms. Some have full-blown PTSD, some are "just" emotionally crippled in their relationships even if they don't have the flashbacks and hyper-viligance to boot. Some people became abusers themselves.
There is such a huge difference between consensual and non-consensual sex. I don't see how you can work in the profession you say you do and not understand the worlds of difference between two men or two women that consensually have sex and any combination of people where non-consensual sexual acts take place. How can you not see it? It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you possibly lump consensual same-sex relations and consensual incestuous relations with non-consensual acts that literally can mess a person up so bad that they have the same psychological effects as a soldier exposed to combat?
There are nights I don't sleep at all because of what I've been through non-consensually. And yet I am in a consensual relationship with someone of the same sex. Being with her is more healing than any kind of therapy, medication, EMDR, CBT, and other crap I've gone through to treat my PTSD. How can you possibly say that is at all alike? I just don't understand.
Rape and sexual abuse are awful. A loving relationship is a beautiful thing. Why shouldn't we be teaching our children about the latter?
I know I have gotten so up, close, and personal. But I want people to see what they are actually saying when they say that homosexuality is wrong, or a sin, and make these absurd analogies to rape/child molestation/bestiality/etc. I think the only reason people can have that kind of opinion is because it's an abstraction. Maybe if they see it in a more concrete format, and put a face to it, they will realize what they're actually saying.
Nimp, you're getting into an entire mix of issues that have little to nothing to do with what I was refering to. After working in the field the simplest way that I can put it is that not everyone reacts to abuse in the same fashion. It is possible for an abused child to demonstrate "consenual" behavior as a byproduct of conditioning. It's sad yes, but it happens.
I understand perfectly well that you have a vested interest in knowing that gay relationships are openly embraced and "tolerated" (for lack of a better word) by the majority. However I simply don't buy the idea that because something is "consensual" that it's always the right thing to do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about sexual relationships with children, beastiality, or incest.
Or perhaps bring it up in context. For instance, when a history or computer science or technology class teaches about Alan Turing, they can bring up his homosexuality.
Something like "Turing was a pioneering cryptologist and computer scientist. He led the British effort in cracking German ciphers during WWII and was responsible for cracking the German Enigma codes. Several of his inventions, including the Turing machine, were the forerunners of and made possible the development of modern computes. After the war Turing, widely known to be gay, was convicted of homosexual conduct, fired from all positions he held, chemically castrated, and subsequently killed himself."
A
I wrote this once again: ACCORDING TO SCIENCE NOONE BORN GAY - SEXUAL ORIENTATION is recrystallized APPROXIMATELY TWENTY YEARS OLD PEOPLE (so young people can't be sure that they are heterosexual
"Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment."
The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.
There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.
The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.
The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy”
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