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Old 01-06-2012, 08:32 AM
 
4,428 posts, read 4,301,649 times
Reputation: 1356

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill61 View Post
That's your reply to my post? Nothing about Senator Coburn's report. Nothing about any of the facts or their repercussions. Just this absurd question. Stunning.

Just a question.

You don't have to get all wacked out about it.

I was just guessing that since you live in Redondo Beach that there was a good chance that you have a lot of money. If you do, you should put it to good use. Like making big donations to Barack's re-election effort.

OK, our tax code sucks. People take advantage of it. At the top and at the bottom. What do you want me to do? Freak out?


So what are you going to do to decrease CEO pay? Never eat at McDonald's? Never buy food or clothes from a big box chain? And suddenly middle class wages will skyrocket?

You can't fix it. Keeping Democrats in office won't fix it. All they want to do is raise taxes. And there's no way in Hell that Democrats would be able to raise taxes high enough to keep up with their spending.

You're right about the need to close loopholes. But Barack still owes lobbyists big time -- so that's never going to happen.

Until we scrap the current tax code and start all over, things won't change.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:44 AM
 
7,360 posts, read 10,581,145 times
Reputation: 3489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
I agree. And that's what is so good about life in America. There are no barriers to income mobility. Millions of us have started with nothing and made a comfortable life for ourselves...... without government intervention.
That's what I think the focus and policies should be about,expanding income-mobility.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
7,770 posts, read 7,998,506 times
Reputation: 8439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post

I agree. And that's what is so good about life in America. There are no barriers to income mobility. Millions of us have started with nothing and made a comfortable life for ourselves...... without government intervention.
Riiiight. The old, "I did it so everyone else should be able to do it, too" lie. The notion of there being no barriers to income mobility in this country is utterly bereft of any facts in the real world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooperkat View Post

Just a question.
No, it wasn't "just a question," it was an obvious attempt to claim I couldn't possibly know what I was talking about, therefore giving you the right to dismiss every fact in my post. It was both lame and transparent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooperkat View Post

You don't have to get all wacked out about it.
Please. Knock off the silly distractions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooperkat View Post

I was just guessing that since you live in Redondo Beach that there was a good chance that you have a lot of money. If you do, you should put it to good use. Like making big donations to Barack's re-election effort.
Stop trying to guess about my financial status or tell me what I should be doing with my money. It's not only off-topic, it's rude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooperkat View Post

OK, our tax code sucks. People take advantage of it. At the top and at the bottom. What do you want me to do? Freak out?

So what are you going to do to decrease CEO pay? Never eat at McDonald's? Never buy food or clothes from a big box chain? And suddenly middle class wages will skyrocket?

You can't fix it. Keeping Democrats in office won't fix it. All they want to do is raise taxes. And there's no way in Hell that Democrats would be able to raise taxes high enough to keep up with their spending.

You're right about the need to close loopholes. But Barack still owes lobbyists big time -- so that's never going to happen.

Until we scrap the current tax code and start all over, things won't change.
Well hallelujah, an acknowledgment. So you admit we aren't just talking about "lazy poor people," but lazy rich people and greedy rich people and powerful, manipulative people and government cronyism, as well as a tax structure that favors the wealthy over the average American. Great! That's the first step; admitting the problem and where it lies.

Now we start electing new people to federal office who commit to:
  • Raise the capital gains tax rate to meet or exceed the rate at which we tax labor, which encourages a better work ethic and rewards those who actually work and not those who manipulate the markets to line their own pockets while destroying workers' retirement funds.
  • Raise the minimum wage to an actual liveable wage so corporations can no longer use the government to subsidize their payroll.
  • Severely penalize all corporations whose employees, on the whole, are forced to rely on government assistance to eat. Make it exponentially more expensive and painful not to pay workers a fair and liveable salary.
  • Eliminate tax loopholes that benefit only the wealthy at the expense of the entire country, like the ability to write off gambling losses from their tax returns.
  • Disallow unemployment benefits from being paid to anyone whose adjusted gross income exceeds a certain threshold (particularly when its a million freaking dollars or more during that tax year).
  • Raise the top marginal tax rate to at least Clinton era levels so we can better fund our country's continued survival and growth.
  • Support and promote a Constitutional Amendment to explicitly state that only flesh and blood humans are "people" as relates to election campaigns, rendering Citizen's United unconstitutional and starting the process of getting money out of influencing our politics.
  • Abolish ALEC and start writing their own bills instead of allowing industry insiders to write legislation that benefits them under the guise of being written by actual lawmakers.
  • Make Congressional Insider Trading explicitly illegal.
  • Reinstate the regulatory rules under Glass-Steagall that protected us for over 40 years from the kind of massive abuse perpetrated by lending institutions that led to the collapse of the world economy in 2008.
These would be a great start to getting our fiscal house in better order. Do you know any Republicans who are advocating for these types of changes? I sure don't. But I do know many, many Democrats and Democratic candidates who are.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Austin
31,104 posts, read 19,508,345 times
Reputation: 9114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Thats not true at all. You become trapped, not enough money to leave, at all.

Not everyone has family to turn to. Not everyone has enough money to leave.

A homeless Iraq war vet, would you deny him food stamps if he found a part time job making 12,000 a year? The cheapest rent in most cities is around 500 a month. Most leases require you to have electricity on, thats another 100 a month even with leaving the thermostat low.

Then there are transportation costs, not everyone has a grocery store right next door. Does he have kids, forget it, not going to make it on 12K.

Real world.

Your solution to the worlds poverty problem is always more government and spending more of OTHER PEOPLE's MONEY. Mine is more charity, more empathy and less waste. I don't think we will ever agree on this topic.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,869 posts, read 23,371,007 times
Reputation: 8661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
Your solution to the worlds poverty problem is always more government and spending more of OTHER PEOPLE's MONEY. Mine is more charity, more empathy and less waste. I don't think we will ever agree on this topic.
No, thats not my solution to worlds poverty at all.

I'm actually in favor of a flat tax with no exceptions.

I think you are misunderstanding my position. Americans, by overwhelming majorities, support food stamps, unemployment, social security, and medicare programs. Usually polled by approving of over 70% of some of them.

So you have to work within the constrains of the governed, which is the basis of our democratic republic. What my own solution to poverty may be radically different from what you think it is, but I do work in a world of reality.

People are not going to stand by and watch people die in the streets because they can't afford healthcare. They won't stand by and watch children dying because they are hungry or cold. These are things the public will not tolerate, so you have to work within those limitations.

And study after study has shown that after food stamp programs were enacted, crime went down, childrens educational chances improved, and its generally a good thing for the economy. Now that isn't saying the program isn't abused, it is, and should be repaired to prevent as much abuse as is humanly possible.

But your plan is to eliminate all of the protections and social safety nets in place, ignoring that this would surely kill many people.

Maybe you don't care, but the majority of Americans do.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about the rest of the world

Last edited by Memphis1979; 01-06-2012 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:10 PM
 
3,277 posts, read 4,991,983 times
Reputation: 1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
I agree. And that's what is so good about life in America. There are no barriers to income mobility. Millions of us have started with nothing and made a comfortable life for ourselves...... without government intervention.
All studies I've ever seen on the subject seem to indicate that not only is there greater inequality in America, but there is less social mobility than in the social democracies with large welfare nets. Your parent's income in America is more predictive of your future income than in Denmark.

http://www.economicmobility.org/asse...m%20Report.pdf

And it makes sense. In countries where you can receive training at low or no cost to yourself, it would be much easier to be more flexible and responsive to the job market. Also you wouldn't be crippled by debt.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
15,873 posts, read 10,204,220 times
Reputation: 20425
Back in the 1930's, my grandfather owned a small dairy; he was "vertically integrated" way ahead of his time; that is, he peddled his own milk (unpasterized) in the nearby "coal patch" towns.

Grandad was also an "Overseer of the Poor" in the township in which he did business. In those days, if you couldn't find work, you went to the Poor District Office, who assigned you to somebody like my grandfather, who could always use a little extra labor (usually shoveling out manure in the days before barn-cleaning machinery) at a bare-bones price.

That was how things got done in the days before Unemployment Compensation. And it worked, until the Democrats and their allies in the labor unions assumed power in Pennsylvania in 1934-36. And of course, the hard-core ne'er-do-wells who harbored a mutual resentment toward all small businesmen were at the head of the pack. My grandad abandoned most of the business not long thereafter.

That split persists to the present day, best exemplified by the mutual animosity between the Tea Party and ACORN and the other groups at the heart of the "Obama Nation". And the fact remains that with the American economy continuing to lose "low touch" industrial jobs to leaner foreign competition, the resentment seems likely to intensify.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Austin
31,104 posts, read 19,508,345 times
Reputation: 9114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post

People are not going to stand by and watch people die in the streets because they can't afford healthcare. They won't stand by and watch children dying because they are hungry or cold. These are things the public will not tolerate, so you have to work within those limitations.
That doesn't happen and doesn't need to happen. People have received free health care and food since the beginning of time. But it does not need to be a government program.


Quote:
Maybe you don't care, but the majority of Americans do.
I absolutely care. That's why I give a sizable sum of MY OWN MONEY to charity every year. I oppose forcing other people to support the disadvantaged. That should be their choice.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Austin
31,104 posts, read 19,508,345 times
Reputation: 9114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoarfrost View Post
All studies I've ever seen on the subject seem to indicate that not only is there greater inequality in America, but there is less social mobility than in the social democracies with large welfare nets. Your parent's income in America is more predictive of your future income than in Denmark.

And it makes sense. In countries where you can receive training at low or no cost to yourself, it would be much easier to be more flexible and responsive to the job market. Also you wouldn't be crippled by debt.

Regardless of what other countries experience, there are no barriers to income mobility in this country. This is proven year after year by the millions that achieve a comfortable living that was NOT provided by their parents.

Obviously, your parents income has an impact even if they give you no financial support. That's a no brainer. Why is that? Because there is a direct correlation between discipline, education and financial achievement. So if your family was educated and taught you responsibility, you are much more likely to achieve more financially. If your parents didn't give a damn about you because they were losers, you will be less likely to achieve financial security.

You don't change those things with more government programs.

And finally, comparisons of vastly different countries are worthless. If we had a small community of Scandinavians (like Denmark) in this country, I would wager their social mobility would be as fluid as the country of Denmark. Demographics are much more important than government programs.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Holiday, FL
1,571 posts, read 1,923,978 times
Reputation: 1159
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
You are right, which is why we need to limit benefits in terms of social welfare. The top income earners in this country work 70-90 hour weeks to get where they are, while the lower income earners protest against 40 hour work weeks!

Hard work and ambition gets a person to the top, and social welfare programs incentivize a person to not be ambitious.
You know.... There was a time, before I retired, I was working 10 to 20 hours a day, 6 and 7 days a week. No, I was not one of the top earners, but I was the one that put in the longest hours.

And, the execs pocketed everything they made off of me.

After 13 years of that, I started having medical problems. The doctors said it was work related, the company said it was not. Care to figure out the rest?
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