China buying up Oilsands... (middle east, lawyer, extremist, solutions)
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1. Oil is fungible. It doesn't matter who sells it to whom.
2. Without the Keystone pipeline, the Canadians can't get the oil to China.
I think your 2nd statement is in error. The Keystone project will bring bitumen derivatives to the Gulf Coast. Theree is a separate project to bring it to Vancouver or elsewhere on Canada's coast.
I think your 2nd statement is in error. The Keystone project will bring bitumen derivatives to the Gulf Coast. Theree is a separate project to bring it to Vancouver or elsewhere on Canada's coast.
That one is called Gateway and it's going to get a rough ride from the environmenalists and others with questionable interests.
They should cook a deal with either CN or CP and piggy-back the thing above a rail line through the rockies. that way it would be inspected every hour or less by passing trains.
Keystone has nothing to do with getting the oil to China UNLESS the U.S. sells it to them after processing it. Keystone is all about the U.S. buying it from Canada to then process (not refine) it and sell it as cleaner crude to whoever then wants to refine and sell it as finished product.
Getting it to China directly from Canada is possible and can be done in it's crude state via train from Alberta, but holy moly; that's a lot of trains!
That's not true at all. The pipeline will be a "Common carrier" and has to transport anyones oil. Just like the owner of a toll road cannot say who is allowed and who is not allowed to transport on that road, pipelines are under the same law. The Chinese owned oil companies in Alberta will be able to ship their oil to the gulf ports and then to China by tanker. They would probably prefer the gateway route but they will be waiting forever for that. I predict it will never be built regardless of the blustering bungle of our federal CONSERVATIVE government.
We generally do not buy refined oil from overseas. We buy crude and refine it here. This is why so much of our refining capacity is in states with shorelines. That's where we get the oil to refine.
It is the crude that is fungible. Once a barrel of crude enters the market, it is just another barrel of crude on the market. It does not matter where it comes from, and it does not matter where it is eventually consumed.
We will refine and transport the crude we get from Canada no differently and at no greater volume than the crude we otherwise get from Saudi Arabia.
Economic activity is always a good thing. Do not mistake my measured observations for opposition to the pipeline. I'm all in favor of it.
But the actual incremental contribution outside of the construction will be minimal... and make no mistake, will contribute exactly nothing to our energy independence.
I am merely observing that the argument that we might somehow be losing out to China by not immediately approving the thing is specious.
The primary purpose of the Keystone pipeline is to make Canadian oil available to the rest of the world... not to the US. It is an export pipeline.
According to my understanding of the NAFTA agreement between the USA and Canada, the USA has first dibbs on 40% of Canadian crude production. Therefore the Keystone is NOT a regular export transportation system. The USA has the right to buy that 40% no matter who owns the crude. Be it a Chinese or Euro oil firm.
This agreement is so ironbound that Canada has to import oil because our total production minus what we must sell to the USA does not meet domestic requirements.
During the last presidential election it was that energy clause that Prime Minister Harper was warnng Obama, would not be renewed if there was any unilateral tinkering with the NAFTA deal by Washington.
Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude
If that were true, we could refine it in Montana.
Actually... we can't refine it in Montana. Different kind of crude requires different refining techniques. Very few of our refineries can handle this particular kind of heavy crude. None in Montana can. Getting it to TX is key. Then a big part of it will flow right back up to Cushing for distribution here in the states...
Not directed at anyone here on this thread in particular... but I can't help but chuckle when so many folks have an opinion or perception about Keystone, pipelines in general, and the oil/gas industry. Usually the strongest opinionated about it.. only know how to put gas in their car and spout what they have seen on TV.....
Actually... we can't refine it in Montana. Different kind of crude requires different refining techniques. Very few of our refineries can handle this particular kind of heavy crude. None in Montana can. Getting it to TX is key. Then a big part of it will flow right back up to Cushing for distribution here in the states...
His point was clearly that we could build refineries in Montana. Instead, they are mostly built along coastlines... why? The answer is convenience... transportation... exports.
That's not true at all. The pipeline will be a "Common carrier" and has to transport anyones oil. Just like the owner of a toll road cannot say who is allowed and who is not allowed to transport on that road, pipelines are under the same law. The Chinese owned oil companies in Alberta will be able to ship their oil to the gulf ports and then to China by tanker. They would probably prefer the gateway route but they will be waiting forever for that. I predict it will never be built regardless of the blustering bungle of our federal CONSERVATIVE government.
It Makes sense to Refine it in B.C. which creates value added product if Canada going to up production of bitumen and send it to China I prefer we refine it in B.C. or Alberta and get the most job and most amount for it we can.
As for the US I think we should come up with a joint National Energy type of deal where we both get to benifit from the jobs to building up our aging infastucture with new roads, Bridges, Tunnels, freeways, Water and sewer linesm, Modren Power Plants to ensure that we can handle the demands of the 21st century amnd not be using the already falling apart Roads and Bridges made in the 1950's to handle the needs of the 20th century and we really lag behinf China and India in this area and no time like the present to deal with the issue.
Thank goodness we’ve finally got a government that has the courage to tell the howling mob of environmental extremists that “enough is enough”.
In addition to the Hollywood know-nothings and environmental extremist groups, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some Middle Eastern countries and Iran are funding, either directly or indirectly, some of these groups opposing the responsible development of our natural resources.
Look it is time we put our countries and and the people of our countries first enough of this buid9ing other natiomns we need go build North America back up before we build anyone else..I mean when Iraq has some better and newer roads then we do and we had to pay to get them built and we built them then why can we not do that here and not have to put any of our troops lives on ther line and have a better Country where we can use the roads that we pay to build.
Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
3,997 posts, read 4,140,130 times
Reputation: 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOlover
It Makes sense to Refine it in B.C. which creates value added product if Canada going to up production of bitumen and send it to China I prefer we refine it in B.C. or Alberta and get the most job and most amount for it we can.
As for the US I think we should come up with a joint National Energy type of deal where we both get to benifit from the jobs to building up our aging infastucture with new roads, Bridges, Tunnels, freeways, Water and sewer linesm, Modren Power Plants to ensure that we can handle the demands of the 21st century amnd not be using the already falling apart Roads and Bridges made in the 1950's to handle the needs of the 20th century and we really lag behinf China and India in this area and no time like the present to deal with the issue.
While I don't disagree with you that our roads, bridges, etc need a big overhaul... What most people don't realize is that about 70% of the pipelines now in the ground are almost to or past their life expectancy. Our pipeline system needs that overhaul as well and is just as big a part of our infrastructure as our highway system. And here is the kicker... these pipelines.. do not have to be paid for by our tax dollars!!! Imagine that? Gas Companies paying their own way. Yet, to overhaul, lay new lines, or even take-up and relay it takes an act of Congress (in the case of Keystone... literally!). Really, Greenpeace and all you environmentalists out there... instead of fighting new construction laid with high tech new techniques and the highest safety standards ever, you need to be out there fighting to save the environment from lines that are past their prime. These are the real dangers out there......
The Chinese has to recycle their dollar. They are not stupid to hold it as value is dropping every day.
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