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Old 01-11-2012, 08:47 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,800 posts, read 44,594,609 times
Reputation: 13625

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vejadu View Post
We have a middle class full of people who are financially irresponsible and claim to be the victim when they voluntarily make poor financial decisions.
Exactly the problem, in a nutshell.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:52 AM
 
20,629 posts, read 19,289,703 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough View Post
I am sure you can supply the data to back your claim about inherited money vs. earned money.
What data? Its a philosophical argument along with pattern recognition. Fundamentally its also the truth if you define "earned" by defining it as the source. The source of wealth is not one who receives an inheritance.

As to recognizing the pattern, you either see it or you don't. I am suprised that people don't when its pointed out to them, but then this has been my experience. Its why most people suck at chess.

The mechanical flaw is human productivity is in constant supply. Fixed resources like land, minerals and materials are not in constant supply. In 2000 years the best investment you could make is in land, water, gold or anything that had worth in Roman times and still has it now. Don't mistake that for creating wealth. That is why an oz of gold is worth more than a rotary dial phone. A 100 years ago that rotary dial phone would have been worth much more. So what happens is producers store their wealth in something that is not inherently productive. This is especially the case with inheretence. Its why Ricardo said wealth grows most quickly when rents are not rising.


Anyway there is no data anymore than the sky is blue.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:54 AM
 
20,629 posts, read 19,289,703 times
Reputation: 8229
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Exactly the problem, in a nutshell.
Even worse is they keep promoting policies against their own interests. That is what is going on in this thread and this very forum. They defend the very principles that undermine their own prosperity.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:05 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,800 posts, read 44,594,609 times
Reputation: 13625
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Even worse is they keep promoting policies against their own interests. That is what is going on in this thread and this very forum. They defend the very principles that undermine their own prosperity.
Yep... overspending, both on a personal level and by the government.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
9,701 posts, read 5,098,532 times
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Spending isn't the decline of the middle class. Spending is what defined the middle class. They were the class that wasn't bound by check to check living. They were the ones who were supposed to be able to afford a certain amount of luxury b/c they were paid a fair wage.

The fact that you're saying the middle-class is at fault for not having enough money to spend on borderline luxury goods should be a critique on how remorseless capitalism & the wealthy elite have gutted the working class. It's robbed people of having enough disposable income to enjoy more than the bare necessities. It's forced people to rely on credit to be more than just the working poor.

If anything, the middle class has been tricked by society, the media, and the elite into not realizing their own plight. They've been given the label "middle-class" but are in actuality just "wage slaves" ekeing out an existence if they try to indulge in any of the things THAT DEFINED "MIDDLE-CLASS." The day this pseudo-middle-class recognizes how screwed they are is the day before we see the demolition of party lines, and the reawakening of a populace movement against the wealthy elite and their puppets in government.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:39 AM
 
4,255 posts, read 3,473,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good View Post
Spending isn't the decline of the middle class. Spending is what defined the middle class. They were the class that wasn't bound by check to check living. They were the ones who were supposed to be able to afford a certain amount of luxury b/c they were paid a fair wage.

The fact that you're saying the middle-class is at fault for not having enough money to spend on borderline luxury goods should be a critique on how remorseless capitalism & the wealthy elite have gutted the working class. It's robbed people of having enough disposable income to enjoy more than the bare necessities. It's forced people to rely on credit to be more than just the working poor.

If anything, the middle class has been tricked by society, the media, and the elite into not realizing their own plight. They've been given the label "middle-class" but are in actuality just "wage slaves" ekeing out an existence if they try to indulge in any of the things THAT DEFINED "MIDDLE-CLASS." The day this pseudo-middle-class recognizes how screwed they are is the day before we see the demolition of party lines, and the reawakening of a populace movement against the wealthy elite and their puppets in government.

Thats kinda funny as Im middleclass and I have never been robbed of the disposable income to enjoy life. One can still aquire all those things that make life grand, but not in 3 months. What many dont understand is how you spend it is as important as how you make it.
I know many a folks who wait untill they absolutly need a car or truck to buy one. Thats about the worst time ya ever could.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:40 AM
 
3,457 posts, read 3,616,531 times
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yeah, it accelerated its own decline by voting for politicians who favored Reaganomics, which is basically the fraudulent idea that corporate wealth will "trickle down" to the median household level.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,321,515 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboy7375 View Post
Thats kinda funny as Im middleclass and I have never been robbed of the disposable income to enjoy life. One can still aquire all those things that make life grand, but not in 3 months. What many dont understand is how you spend it is as important as how you make it.
I know many a folks who wait untill they absolutly need a car or truck to buy one. Thats about the worst time ya ever could.
And savings..why that turned into a bad word.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:52 AM
 
20,629 posts, read 19,289,703 times
Reputation: 8229
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Yep... overspending, both on a personal level and by the government.
That is certainly an aspect of it, but again what was fatal is not recognizing it as spending.
Your home is the most important investment you'll make.

The tag line above can be found everywhere.

I always thought industrial capital was an investment.

However you cannot deny the role that our financial system played. If you collected 10 thousand dollars for a down payment over a year and the price of the house you wanted went up 20 thousand, does that not cause a bit of a dilemma? Savers were severely punished.

Credit should flow to industrial capital, not luxury.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:00 AM
 
20,629 posts, read 19,289,703 times
Reputation: 8229
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboy7375 View Post
Thats kinda funny as Im middleclass and I have never been robbed of the disposable income to enjoy life. One can still aquire all those things that make life grand, but not in 3 months. What many dont understand is how you spend it is as important as how you make it.
I know many a folks who wait untill they absolutly need a car or truck to buy one. Thats about the worst time ya ever could.

If one slave creates a tool that he secretly keeps to save him one hour a day over the other slaves, I am sure he would be quite pleased with himself so long as it never occurred to him to compare his lot to his master. Like a child that pulls up a chair to get to the cookie jar, so are those in the middle class who merely discover the margins of frugality, and declare they are masters of their fates.
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