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The fact of the matter is that most Black children born out of wedlock do not have parents with the resources of Brad and Angelina. Most are born into impoverished/low income households.
The overwhelming majority of the mothers of these children are do not have stable, long term relationships with loving, caring men. These children are not being ushered to private schools in great neighborhoods by their nannies while their mothers earn top dollar at a law firm or investment bank. These children call drug-infested, crime-ridden neighborhoods home. These children are dumped on their aging, broken down grandmas while their mothers hit the club looking for a new baby daddy. These children are exposed to the many unscrupulous men that wander in and out of their mother's bedroom (and sometimes sadly make sidetrips into the children's bedroom)
The fact that we have Black people encouraging and celebrating out of wedlock children as a sort of new "norm" is very sad and irresponsible. Why would someone advocate to give Black children a known disadvantage by suggesting that a 2-parent home is no longer the most beneficial start to a child's chances in life.
Black women must stop lowering standards...we are going backwards and our children suffer due to our lack of self esteem and lack of good choices.
It's very difficult to debate with you because you insist on using extremes and exaggerations to make your point.
While I agree that many children experience the things you describe, the one thing that is missing from your scenarios are the Dads. Where are they? Why aren't they being held accountable (especially by you)?
It is a fact that women WILL have children OOW. There will be no sudden change of heart. It would be great, but considering OOW births are on the rise in all races, thinking that this will change is unrealistic.
So...what is a workable solution? We hold these men accountable. Make it no longer acceptable for men to be deadbeat Dads. Do better at enforcing child support. And we also talk with these young women to show them a better way. Many are simply following the trends of their friends. It's not uncommon for one girl in a group to fall pregnant and then have the other girls in their clique do the same. They're young and dumb and not thinking through how foolish their decision is in the long run.
There will always be a class of people who are okay with the bare minimum. Barring a sterilization program to keep these people from having babies, this problem will never go away. The best we can hope to do in these situations is work with both parents to at least ensure that they are active and involved parents.
And why do you insist on saying that black people are encouraging this behavior? Who are you referring to? Who has said this is the new "norm"? I'm not sure why you keep insisting this; it's simply not true.
It’s really sad that women are getting most of the blame as it pertains to OOW births.
And it would be nice to clarify if we are talking about young girls (under 21) when we’re talking about irresponsible behavior. It seems we’re going back and forth on who we’re talking about.
If we’re talking about young people, education about gaining self-esteem is key. These young girls need to learn self-esteem to realize that “any” attention is NOT always better than “no” attention. Peer pressure is very real and many young girls use their bodies to gain acceptance from other guys. They also need to learn that they have a right to demand that their partner use a condom if he wants to have sex with her. (Some guys guilt young girls into not using condoms using lines like: “Don’t you love me?” “Why do we need to use protection if we’re together”). Young guys are notorious for not wanting to use protection and young girls need to be taught to demand that they do. I personally wish that there was a way to require sexually active teens to use BC until they reach 21. I wouldn’t even mind if this was some sort of stipend program.
And I don’t want to hear the BS about boys not learning how to be good Dads because their fathers weren’t around. That’s a cop-out that loser fathers use when they don’t step up to the plate. While you may not know everything, you don’t at least know that one sure thing to do is: stick around? These are the same young men who whine about not having a father around and then they turn around and do the same thing to their own offspring. It’s shameful. I would heavily support some sort of program that sterilizes men who do not pay child support to his child and/or see them regularly.
Teaching about birth control isn’t the answer. You can teach them all you want, but if they don’t choose to you it, it’s a wasted effort.
So, it’s a two-approach solution:
Teach girls self-esteem so that they don’t make wrong choices about who they have sex with. Ensure that they have a plan for success to hopefully reveal to them how a child would severely impact that plan. Encourage girls to use a birth control method that does not rely on diligence to ensure that it works (IUD, Depo, etc). Birth control pills and condom use is not going to cut it.
Honestly, there’s not much you can teach guys re: abstaining from sex. It’s just not gonna happen. So, with them, it seems to be more about making the penalties for making and abandoning children so harsh, that they think twice about risking it. I have my own methods about how I would go about doing this. But I’m sure they’re unethical and they are definitely illegal.
It's very difficult to debate with you because you insist on using extremes and exaggerations to make your point.
While I agree that many children experience the things you describe, the one thing that is missing from your scenarios are the Dads. Where are they? Why aren't they being held accountable (especially by you)?
It is a fact that women WILL have children OOW. There will be no sudden change of heart. It would be great, but considering OOW births are on the rise in all races, thinking that this will change is unrealistic.
So...what is a workable solution? We hold these men accountable. Make it no longer acceptable for men to be deadbeat Dads. Do better at enforcing child support. And we also talk with these young women to show them a better way. Many are simply following the trends of their friends. It's not uncommon for one girl in a group to fall pregnant and then have the other girls in their clique do the same. They're young and dumb and not thinking through how foolish their decision is in the long run.
There will always be a class of people who are okay with the bare minimum. Barring a sterilization program to keep these people from having babies, this problem will never go away. The best we can hope to do in these situations is work with both parents to at least ensure that they are active and involved parents.
And why do you insist on saying that black people are encouraging this behavior? Who are you referring to? Who has said this is the new "norm"? I'm not sure why you keep insisting this; it's simply not true.
I was raised with very high standards and very strict morals so compromising on certain issues is not likely. I think that you look at the issue purely through the eyes of someone who was raised in that type of an environment (and repeated the cycle) so the contrary view seems foreign and rigid to you.
So, regarding the questions, "Where are the father's of these OOW children?" "Why are the father's not being held accountable?" The answer to these question will always lead back to the women and their lack of scruples in selecting the men who will be the father of these children. All roads lead back to the mothers.
The reason I hold the mother's more responsible is because (barring rape/sexual assault) they are ultimately the ones who will determine whether or not a child will be brought into the "relationship." Men can scatter seeds into the wind yet not know how many propogated and where they all landed.
Many men will say anything that they need to get sex. They will say many things to many different women to get as much sex as possible (and each one of those women thinks that they are the "only woman in his life." So again, if any of these women (who "think" that they are the only one) decide to get pregnant without a real commitment (ie a marriage) then it is their fault. They were too stupid to properly vet the man with whom they decide that they want to start a family. Many of these women make the decision to have children with men who already have other children that they do not support.
But in the long run, it will be easier to attempt to educate women to stop being open all night like a 7-Eleven than it will be to curb the sexual behavior and irresponsibility of fatherless men. When women respect themselves the men around them will tend treat them accordingly.
I was raised with very high standards and very strict morals so compromising on certain issues is not likely. I think that you look at the issue purely through the eyes of someone who was raised in that type of an environment (and repeated the cycle) so the contrary view seems foreign and rigid to you.
So, regarding the questions, "Where are the father's of these OOW children?" "Why are the father's not being held accountable?" The answer to these question will always lead back to the women and their lack of scruples in selecting the men who will be the father of these children. All roads lead back to the mothers.
The reason I hold the mother's more responsible is because (barring rape/sexual assault) they are ultimately the ones who will determine whether or not a child will be brought into the "relationship." Men can scatter seeds into the wind yet not know how many propogated and where they all landed.
Many men will say anything that they need to get sex. They will say many things to many different women to get as much sex as possible (and each one of those women thinks that they are the "only woman in his life." So again, if any of these women (who "think" that they are the only one) decide to get pregnant without a real commitment (ie a marriage) then it is their fault. They were too stupid to properly vet the man with whom they decide that they want to start a family. Many of these women make the decision to have children with men who already have other children that they do not support.
But in the long run, it will be easier to attempt to educate women to stop being open all night like a 7-Eleven than it will be to curb the sexual behavior and irresponsibility of fatherless men. When women respect themselves the men around them will tend treat them accordingly.
What exactly do you mean by your bolded statement? My mother had my sister at 19 and me when she was 24 and married to my father. They separated when I was 2. She has been with my stepfather since I was 3 (28 years) and I have two half-siblings. Although my Mom and stepfather never married, they were committed parents, so they managed to raise children who were not delinquent (wonders never cease, right?). (BTW, my bio Dad was also in my life).
I did grow up in the projects. My mother was not honest about her relationship with my stepdad, so we lived in public housing. I knew that it wasn't the life for me. I met my husband in grade school, we had our first child at 15. Second when I was 19. At the birth of our second, we moved to our own place in an area free of crime and drugs (we were earning $60k combined at 19/21). We married when I was 21 and 2 more children later are still together. We earn substantially more than we did 10 years ago and live a very comfortable life. I also graduated from college with my bachelor's degree and plan to pursue a post-grad degree when my youngest is school-aged.
My children are great children. You couldn't ask for more. My oldest will be a senior in high school next year and already receives calls/information from colleges because of her academic success. While she gained her smarts from me, luckily she doesn't hold the same interest in boys. My other children that are school-aged (12 & 9) also do very well academically.
There is no repeat of anything. My children know that anything less than a college education is unacceptable. While I truly hope none of them become sexually active until marriage, who knows what will happen. (So far, so good). But my children understand and know that failure is not an option in this family.
I could have turned out like so many of the single mothers out here. The difference: I had a partner who was just as committed to doing better. He is a fantastic father and provider and I'm thankful every day for him.
Nothing foreign or rigid about what you're suggesting. I'm living it.....Are you?
This thread is indicative of the problems within the African American community. We can't even discuss our problems without snide remarks, outright insults, and finger pointing.
Our problems are so complex. We need so much healing in our community. But, where do we start?
Do we start with the children? Or do we start with the adults? Is it possible for adults to change? If the adults don't change, do the children have any hope of lasting change of behavior? Suppose we educate children on this topic (not having babies OOW). What good would that do if they go home and they are surrounded by the antithesis of what they have learned? Can we reach the children without the parents?
Thanks for sharing, this clarifies my understanding of your POV. To me, it seems you're saying the irresponsible men aren't going to change regardless so you hold the women more accountable to make change happen.
I've certainly heard this exact point of view from a lot of the so-called "nerdy black men" we discussed earlier in this thread. They generally believe irresponsible men will only change (or die without passing on their seed) if women close their legs to them and only open them to responsible men, hence, they hold the women more accountable.
As Cali already pointed out, many black women with out of wedlock children live in a serious fantasy world. They expect that the guy will play house, but why should he? When a man is serious about a woman, he usually ensures that he has the means to support a future family and commits to monogamy and marriage.
It's really silly to hold the 'tom cats' responsible for the out of wedlock children they create, because providing for the woman and playing daddy to the children, were never part of the deal. The woman may fool herself into believing that she is in a 'real' relationship, but she's really just a 'booty call.' After he gets bored, it's on to the next one. She is merely a 'jumpoff' (i.e. a casual sex partner). He doesn't take her or the out of wedlock children seriously. The guy probably believes that she should just be grateful if he even comes around once or twice a month (when he needs a break from his other jumpoffs) LOL. More than likely, he witnessed the same type of behavior from his dad... and his mom was probably a replica of his 'girlfriend.'
I guess my point is that many believe that thick=healthy/good. So if you're told you're thick, you think that's a positive and you seek to maintain that "thickness". Most AA men enjoy curves, so if you get too thin, you lose the curves. I can attest to the fact that when I was thin (size 4/6), I didn't get much attention, but at a size 8/10, I got a lot more play.
I don't think that deep down any of the women who are fat/obese really believe that they're healthy. It's more about denial because if you acknowledge it, then you realize that you have to make some changes.
BTW, thin does not always equal healthy. Especially if you are doing damaging things to your body to maintain your slim physique (eating disorders, etc). There are a lot of thin women with heart disease, osteoporosis, etc because they've put their body through a lot to stay thin.
There aren't many thin women with heart disease, diabetes and/or hypertension. The majority of people who suffer from poor health outcomes are obese individuals.
A person doesn't need to resort to unhealthy practices (i.e. anorexia and/or bulimia) to maintain a thin physique. One simply must learn to eat a balanced nutritious diet which focusses on lean proteins, quality organic veggies, healthy whole grains and water. Simply cutting out fast food, excess sweets and soda pop does wonders for the body, mind and spirit. -And at least an hour of exercise a day, doesn't hurt either.
The bottom line is that some black men need to step up, grow up and stop blaming black women for their troubles. What I've learned over the years is that the guys who complain the most (about black women) are the ones who've accomplished the least in life. So, seriously, who are you to criticize anyone?
Some black men blame black women for OOW children, yet they don't have a conversation with their homeboy about them being a deadbeat dad. There is a very real absence of pride in many black men. Though we have our faults, it is rare to find a black woman who will abandon her child(ren) without looking back. Deadbeat fathers are scum, but somehow in the black community, the women are blamed for this. Rather than tell the men to step up, they tell the women to close their legs.
You view the guy as a dead beat, but he views his girlfriend as a casual sex partner and his out of wedlock children are merely by products of his casual sex mistakes; nothing more, nothing less. Why would you expect him to commit to being a father, when he clearly showed no interest in committing to the woman in question... If he valued her, she wouldn't be his 'baby's momma,' she would be his wife. Again, there's a serious disconnect with far too many black women. Some just don't get it.
And now imagine these same women, whom the guys decide to "hit it and quit it" a couple of times, getting pregnant on purpose...therein lies the problem. Many of these women may believe that they are in a "relationship" with these men and decide to get pregnant.
Now let's imagine that these women meet a few more "hit it and quit it" guys over the next 8-10 years...a decides to get pregnant a few more times.
This is the problem with Black women and OOW children in a nutshell.
As I understand it, women gestate and give birth to children. If a guy wants the child his woman is carrying and his woman does not... no child. If a guy does not want the child his woman is carrying and his woman does... child. Until that fact changes, then like it or not, women bear the greater responsibility in matters of pregnancy and childbirth. Only middle class black women seem to have an issue with this. Middle class white women absolutely do not. Every middle class black woman I ever knew could tell me all about the drawbacks of every birth control method. Most of them spent so much time between relationships that birth control pills weren't really practical. Not that most of them would use them. I'll admit it. I'm a condom hater. I'm a middle class guy who only gets involved in long term relationships which are monagamous and its one thing to hit something hot quick and hard but when... ... ah what's the use... the sisters here aren't even trying to understand things from a guys POV. Fine. Dont. I really don't see why this thread continues exploring all the dark corners of male/female dealings then. Men are not going to change. Men don't need to change. There is no way for a guy that is a father to avoid paying child support if the woman files for it. No way... except to not have an income of course. What did I say about half of black men having severely compromised earning potential due to a criminal history... A middle class dad with a W-4 or W-2 cannot even leave the country on a vacation unless the ducks are in a row child support wise. If working class sisters are making bad decisions and carrying to term the results of one night stands, why are the men to blame and why are the middle class black women that are posting here worried about them? Middle class black women often find themselves pregnant and, as often as not, carry the pregnancy to term. They get child support. They also get the hatred and scorn of the baby's father if he did not want the child. Middle class black women also have abortions at an appalling rate. A lot suffer psychologically afterwards. Most of them blame the guy... I know because I have been that guy... Funny thing though... after a few situations like that I got a clue and tried something different. I didn't change much. I didn't learn to love condoms or get a vasectomy. But I did discover that there are women that know how to use diaphragms or IUD's and even birth control pills. Sixty-three pages... that is some kind of P&OC record... I've really got to ask if none of you see what I see after all this... I mean...is there really nothing else that black women want to do with a black man (or non-black man) besides make babies??
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The guy probably believes that she should just be grateful if he even comes around once or twice a month (when he needs a break from his other jumpoffs) LOL. More than likely, he witnessed the same type of behavior from his dad... and his mom was probably a replica of his 'girlfriend.' 
