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I agree with the OP -- I want GM whole foods and processed foods containing GM foodstuffs labeled as well. I also want seeds labeled - I want to know that my OP seeds aren't from artificial GMOs, and if an F1 hybrid seed is via natural cross-breeding or artificial GE.
not sure what you mean by OP seeds, but i'm quite sure none of the seeds you'd buy online or at your local store to grow in your garden are in any way genetically modified. they are the products of classical breeding programs.
By "early" I mean as compared to the eons that nature has been doing things... our one or two decades is a mere pittance. Also, one or two decades isn't long enough for us to determine that these modifications do not have long term adverse effects on our health or the general health of the larger ecosystem. We have too many simultaneous "advancements" emerging to determine why certain diseases are occuring at rates previously unheard of. Is it better medical detection methods? Is it greater/faster knowledge dispersal? Is it a greater reliance on processed foods? Is it environmental toxins (natural or artificial)? Is it processed food stuffs like HFCS and soy derivatives? Is it GMOs? Is it byproducts from fossil fuels? Is it general laziness and lack of fitness?
We simply don't know and have too many variables to track. So one suspect can always point to another and say "I didn't do it, it was them". We need to slow down and figure out what is causing these problems with human health and environmental health. We should figure out if something that we're doing incorrectly is actually causing us to need our new-fangled advancements... and whether we're just compounding the problem over time by doing so.
When we're able to narrow down the causes of recent increased infertility, physiological and neurological developmental disorders, organ cancers, diabetes, food allergies, crohne's, IBS, and others then I might feel more comfortable assuming that one suspect (in this case GMO food) is any less the culprit.
It's funny that you mention failures in ag method (crop rotation etc) as a defense for GMO... when arguably had we not changed those original natural methods and adopted synthetic fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides and mono-cropping we wouldn't have given rise to GMO in the first place. If we'd just been employing good ag practices all along then we probably wouldn't have needed all the pesticides, herbicides and antibiotics that are now wreaking havoc and "forcing" us to engineer new ways to combat the problems that we caused ourselves.
I find it interesting that we once assumed something was dangerous until it was reasonably proven safe... but now we assume something is safe until we're forced to accept evidence that it IS dangerous. We don't even want to accept evidence, no matter how strongly correlative, that something MIGHT be dangerous... well, except cigarettes, of course, but that's another story.
I accept organic Bt pesticides as generally safe when used conscientiously with proper precautions when other less intensive methods have failed. Spraying it willy-nilly on everything and injecting it into the DNA of plants is irresponsible and reduces it's effectiveness (as already evidenced by the development of resistant insects, etc). Humans have a bad habit of assuming if a little is good, then a lot must be better....
not sure what you mean by OP seeds, but i'm quite sure none of the seeds you'd buy online or at your local store to grow in your garden are in any way genetically modified. they are the products of classical breeding programs.
I want to know that the seeds I purchase and plant were not produced, through open pollination, by parent plants that were artificially modified (lab GE rather than natural breeding); and, therefore, that any seeds I collect from those plants will not contain GE mutations.
Genetic engineering in a seed does not preclude the mature plant from reproducing by open pollination, to include cross-breeding with heirloom varieties, and passing on some or all of the artificial mutations to subsequent generations... as proven by Monsanto's GMO corn cross-breeding with non-GMO corn in the refuge barriers via airborne pollen.
As for why not do something that mimics a natural process because we have some knowledge and the technological skill to do it... let's bring it down to the individual level and see if the philosophy holds.
I know how to kill someone with a fork... it is knowledge and technological skill... does this mean I should do it, simply because I can?
I know how to make several forms of poisons and explosives... it is knowledge and technological skill... does this mean I should create them, and disseminate them to the general population, simply because I can?
Or would these actions be considered illegal, or at the very least, irresponsible?
By "early" I mean as compared to the eons that nature has been doing things... our one or two decades is a mere pittance. Also, one or two decades isn't long enough for us to determine that these modifications do not have long term adverse effects on our health or the general health of the larger ecosystem. We have too many simultaneous "advancements" emerging to determine why certain diseases are occuring at rates previously unheard of. Is it better medical detection methods? Is it greater/faster knowledge dispersal? Is it a greater reliance on processed foods? Is it environmental toxins (natural or artificial)? Is it processed food stuffs like HFCS and soy derivatives? Is it GMOs? Is it byproducts from fossil fuels? Is it general laziness and lack of fitness?
We simply don't know and have too many variables to track. So one suspect can always point to another and say "I didn't do it, it was them". We need to slow down and figure out what is causing these problems with human health and environmental health. We should figure out if something that we're doing incorrectly is actually causing us to need our new-fangled advancements... and whether we're just compounding the problem over time by doing so.
When we're able to narrow down the causes of recent increased infertility, physiological and neurological developmental disorders, organ cancers, diabetes, food allergies, crohne's, IBS, and others then I might feel more comfortable assuming that one suspect (in this case GMO food) is any less the culprit.
given the fact that there is not even a smidgen of evidence that any of those disorders are caused by GMO's, you recommend that the whole thing be shut down for 3 or 4 or even more decades? that is a ridiculous overreaction.
Quote:
It's funny that you mention failures in ag method (crop rotation etc) as a defense for GMO... when arguably had we not changed those original natural methods and adopted synthetic fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides and mono-cropping we wouldn't have given rise to GMO in the first place. If we'd just been employing good ag practices all along then we probably wouldn't have needed all the pesticides, herbicides and antibiotics that are now wreaking havoc and "forcing" us to engineer new ways to combat the problems that we caused ourselves.
you really think we could produce even half of our current ag production levels without synthetic fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides? no way in heck.
Quote:
I find it interesting that we once assumed something was dangerous until it was reasonably proven safe... but now we assume something is safe until we're forced to accept evidence that it IS dangerous. We don't even want to accept evidence, no matter how strongly correlative, that something MIGHT be dangerous... well, except cigarettes, of course, but that's another story.
when was that? certainly not when you could buy liquid opium and heroin extracts over-the-counter. what period in time are you referring to?
Quote:
I accept organic Bt pesticides as generally safe when used conscientiously with proper precautions when other less intensive methods have failed. Spraying it willy-nilly on everything and injecting it into the DNA of plants is irresponsible and reduces it's effectiveness (as already evidenced by the development of resistant insects, etc). Humans have a bad habit of assuming if a little is good, then a lot must be better....
overdependence on a single means of control is never a good thing, true enough; my point about Bt related to the fact that you are apparently convinced of the safety of Bt when used as a spray, yet not convinced of the safety of the same proteins if they are produced by plants.
I want to know that the seeds I purchase and plant were not produced, through open pollination, by parent plants that were artificially modified (lab GE rather than natural breeding); and, therefore, that any seeds I collect from those plants will not contain GE mutations.
Genetic engineering in a seed does not preclude the mature plant from reproducing by open pollination, to include cross-breeding with heirloom varieties, and passing on some or all of the artificial mutations to subsequent generations... as proven by Monsanto's GMO corn cross-breeding with non-GMO corn in the refuge barriers via airborne pollen.
there are tons of seed companies that profess to sell GM-free seed; do you not believe that those seeds are truly GM-free?
unless you're planting field corn, soybeans, canola, or cotton in your garden, your chances of getting seed that is in any way GM is virtually nil. GM vegetables are virtually nonexistent.
As for why not do something that mimics a natural process because we have some knowledge and the technological skill to do it... let's bring it down to the individual level and see if the philosophy holds.
who on earth ever suggested that we do anything simply on the basis of our ability to do it?
Quote:
I know how to kill someone with a fork... it is knowledge and technological skill... does this mean I should do it, simply because I can?
I know how to make several forms of poisons and explosives... it is knowledge and technological skill... does this mean I should create them, and disseminate them to the general population, simply because I can?
Or would these actions be considered illegal, or at the very least, irresponsible?
wow. you're actually drawing an analogy between killing people with forks, and genetically modified crops?
i'm sorry, but that's probably one of the worst analogies i've seen in nearly 5 years on this board.
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