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View Poll Results: Which gender is more responsible for out of wedlock births?
Women because of they suffer larger consequences (pregnancy, raising the child) or because they control if pregnancy continues 56 25.45%
Men because they didn't marry the woman, or "got her pregnant" or "loved her and left her" 21 9.55%
Both 143 65.00%
Voters: 220. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-24-2012, 07:32 PM
 
37,496 posts, read 45,805,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onihC View Post
Women don’t want equality, only the things that benefit them.
You beat this same stupid drum over and over and over. DUDE. Physically, women are NOT equal. We have babies. You do not. What about that do you not get???

This thread is absurd. I'm done here.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Where Dance Music comes first
1,904 posts, read 2,983,182 times
Reputation: 2260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
I'm inclined to agree with this. The more strident a man is about wanting to be able to walk away after losing the gamble of contraception, the more that man strikes me as jealous and threatened.
I'm not really sure how deduced you the threatened part but you can bet your ass that I'm jealous. C'mon, why won't I be jealous when I can't get to eat my cake and have it too, just the way a woman can?

Btw, I'm also pretty jealous of Norwegian Citizens and their incredibly high standard of living.

Quote:
I'll go one further and suggest that such men dehumanize women on some level and resent the fact that they need women to procreate.
I'm not following.

Quote:
A woman can go to a sperm bank or have a one-night stand if she wants a kid. A man needs to find a woman willing to put herself through pregnancy and labor to bring his kid into the world. of-wedlock births, too.
I'm jelly!

Last edited by Raging-Hetero; 01-24-2012 at 08:20 PM..
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:56 PM
 
Location: nj
1 posts, read 514 times
Reputation: 10
Post in my case i was lead on by men who pretended to love n care for me n then they left me pregnant.p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post
Because of another thread I am posting in ([URL="//www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/1472076-question-having-children-out-wedlock.html"]//www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/1472076-question-having-children-out-wedlock.html[/URL]), and because of opinions that blame either one gender or the other, but not usually both, I am wondering how people consider which gendbvr is more responsible for out of wedlock births.

So, to everyone:

1) Do you believe women are more at fault because they bear larger risks and consequences with pregnancy, childbirth and raising the children, or for some other reason I haven't thought of?

2) Do you believe men are more at fault for leading women on, making a baby and then leaving them or for some other reason I haven't thought of?

3) Do you believe both at fault equally?
I was lead to believe these men cared for me. But i chose to keep them love them n b.the rrsponsible parent.

Just curious, if anyone would like to chime in.
o
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Old 01-25-2012, 07:28 AM
 
2,028 posts, read 1,885,280 times
Reputation: 1001
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
You have great options. You can have sex with a nameless chick, walk right out the door without so much as a phone number - hell, men can have children and not even KNOW about it. Please. And if you want to make certain that no child results from your dillydallying, then don't dilly with anyone. Even better - get it snipped. It's really pretty simple. The problem is, you want to have your cake, and eat it too. You want all of the fun, but none of the worry or responsibility.

If you father a child, you should, can, and probably will, be held responsible; the mother most certainly will. You best learn that now, before you go thoughtlessly squirting into the night.
Good morning,

It's interesting how you ignore that women still have great options, too. A woman can have a sex with a nameless man, walk out the door without so much as a phone number, and then go on to take the morning after pill, or have an abortion, or drop a baby off to a safe haven without the father's consent, or give the baby up for adoption without the father's consent. She's completely in the driver's seat. There is no proof in your assertion that women will be held responsible. How are they held responsible if they have four options that give them an "out" for parenthood? Sounds exactly like your "cake and eat it too" charge you're leveling against men.

There is no real "out" for men, they will be put in jail for failure to pay child support. No one can walk away without going underground for the rest of their lives, which still isn't a complete "out" like the options I listed for women.

In regards to getting "snipped", are you also making that case for women? Are you suggesting they lose the post-conception options and instead get one of their own semi-permanent, reversible means of birth control? If not, you're being intellectually inconsistent with these double standards again.

By the way, no need to make this personal. I am my own child's primary caregiver, and I am not "thoughtlessly squirting" into anyone. I am arguing academic points, not personal. Please keep the debate in that realm, thanks.
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Old 01-25-2012, 07:31 AM
 
2,028 posts, read 1,885,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
You beat this same stupid drum over and over and over. DUDE. Physically, women are NOT equal. We have babies. You do not. What about that do you not get???

This thread is absurd. I'm done here.
Physically, men are NOT equal, and can use the strength advantage over women in a variety of ways, including criminal behaviors and through gender roles / discrimination. Thankfully, we now criminalize those behaviors to make things EQUAL between the sexes.

You're holding a double standard if you agree with women's legal equality in situations where they are weaker, but not men.
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Old 01-25-2012, 07:46 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,901 posts, read 42,625,050 times
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Both are responsible because it takes two people to make a baby. For the people complaining about child support, the taxpayers don't want to foot the bill for you. It's also illegal to force someone to have a medical procedure against his or her will, so it's up to the woman whether to have an abortion.

"But that's not fair! I want to have indiscriminate sex with no consequences!" If you can find a way around the biology of it, and the legality of it, or convince the taxpayers that they need to pay for your kid, then I guess that could happen. Until then, watch where you stick it, I guess.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Where Dance Music comes first
1,904 posts, read 2,983,182 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
Both are responsible because it takes two people to make a baby. For the people complaining about child support, the taxpayers don't want to foot the bill for you. It's also illegal to force someone to have a medical procedure against his or her will, so it's up to the woman whether to have an abortion.

"But that's not fair! I want to have indiscriminate sex with no consequences!" If you can find a way around the biology of it, and the legality of it, or convince the taxpayers that they need to pay for your kid, then I guess that could happen. Until then, watch where you stick it, I guess.
I don't think the discussion is really about if or when it's gonna happen, but more so about admitting OR denying the existence of this particular flaw within reason.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:15 AM
 
2,028 posts, read 1,885,280 times
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Hi Julia, I think your concerns were hashed out in this thread already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
Both are responsible because it takes two people to make a baby. For the people complaining about child support, the taxpayers don't want to foot the bill for you. It's also illegal to force someone to have a medical procedure against his or her will, so it's up to the woman whether to have an abortion.
Most have agreed it takes two, the focus has shifted to actual births since there are options between conception and that point.

I agree with the child support angle and have submitted a good plan a few pages back by converting welfare / housing / unemployment to a workfare job-only program with partially-covered child care (decreases with each child) and a max 2 year job training / degree in an in-demand field. This costs less than the current system and puts every participant on a path to self sufficiency.

I haven't seen anyone advocate for forced abortions. The solution is to leave all of women's 4 options in place (morning after pill, abortion, adoption, safe havens) and give men 1 option instead of zero (opt-out before abortion period ends).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
"But that's not fair! I want to have indiscriminate sex with no consequences!" If you can find a way around the biology of it, and the legality of it, or convince the taxpayers that they need to pay for your kid, then I guess that could happen. Until then, watch where you stick it, I guess.
If you're pro-life, I can understand your argument. If you're pro-choice, then it's intellectually inconsistent. I respect your opinions and neutrality on this site, but if we are going to call ourselves an equal society, we need to make accommodations that live up to this premise. We already do so in situations where women are at a disadvantage, why not do so when men are in that scenario?

Let's keep in mind that 67% of single mothers aren't in poverty, so not every child born out of wedlock where the father opts out will end up in that position. More likely vs married couples, sure, but not an automatic guarantee as it is portrayed in these threads. If anything, my proposals will reduce these births and burden on society if women know they will have to work to care for kids they solely chose to birth. Responsibilities should come with the rights women have over the choice to have birth or not.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:41 AM
 
36,229 posts, read 30,671,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onihC View Post


“Don’t get married”, eh? Imagine if the law didn’t favor women in court and when they complained have the court go “well, then don’t get married and stop complaining”. How nice, huh?
Dont have to imagine. No state divorce law states the woman is entitled to alimony. It makes allowance for alimony to the spouse that may be economically disadvantaged base on certain criteria for a certain length of time. None state the woman will have custody of the children. It states what is in the best interest of the children based on which parent spent the most time with the kids, did the majority of parenting and did and care care best for the kids. No law states the woman will recieve child support, but the custodial parent. None state the women will receive half of the mans assets. It states marital assets and debt will be divide between spouses. I dont see how this by defaut favors women. But your right if things dont go your way in court, dont get married and stop complaining.


Quote:
Next time a woman starts a thread complaining because her husband doesn’t buy her jewelry or something, tell her the same thing “Don’t get married”.
Your right. No one should have expectations that their spouse will buy them jewelry or something so dont marry based on this primise.


Quote:
As always, there are always exceptions.
Yes but my example is the norm, not the exception. The exception is the rich and famous divorces some poster keep refering to.


Quote:
Try applying the same to women when they complain about a man walking out of her pregnancy “Hey sister, try using birth control and suck it up”.
Thats pretty much what happens. They are told to suck it up, they should have made a different choice.


Quote:
So women chose as they see fit, right? If the guy has money and a nice house then “ok, he’s part of this pregnancy, therefore, he should hand me all he has” but if he doesn’t have much “bad luck dude, suck it up, you are not part of the pregnancy anymore”. See how women can be hypocritical?
I dont get your logic here. Mothers seek child support from the father regardless of what his assets and income are. CS is based on a percentage of income. You dont get handed all he has. So no they dont chose. There is alway the exception tho of those women who will seek out a rich dude and intentionally get preg. But thats and exception.


Quote:
Equality means we should all be treated as equals, fair, just, etc. But when you have a law where women can chose whatever fits them, doesn’t sound so fair, does it?
Want to provide a link to that law.

Quote:
Pick one:
-In case of pregnancy, men ARE ALWAYS part of it, therefore, they should be responsible and be part of the whole thing.
-In case of pregnancy, it is all up to the woman, therefore, men can chose to stick around or not.
Men are not pregnant so Im not sure how they can be part of a pregnancy. Men are however part of a child that results from a pregnancy so they should be responsible for the child.

Quote:
Imagine if men could chose to pay women alimony, divide their assets, etc. on divorce if they felt like it. Not fair, is it?
Again they can. Choose to marry someone who earns an income. Dont marry so you have no marital assests to divide.


Quote:
And the fetus developed in there thanks to a man. So a man is only responsible and part of the whole thing when it suits the woman
Pretty much. When it suits the woman to continue the development and give birth. Then the father is responsible for the child. If the woman decides not to continue the pregnancy then the man is not responsible.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:47 AM
 
Location: now nyc
1,456 posts, read 4,320,408 times
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Both are responsible but I would say women are MORE responsible.

Ultimately, it's the woman who has control over her body and what she does with it (unless it's some kinda third world country where women don't have rights).
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