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Does anyone know what safety measures there are on these huge new cruise ships if there is a reason to evacuate at sea? Are there enough life boats for 4000 to 6000 people?
Yup - more than enough, in fact. Lifeboats/life rafts are regulated by the SOLAS convention, which annoyingly isn't available online. There's a requirement for overcapacity in a combination of boats and rafts.
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What would the plans be to rescue so many people stuck in the middle of an ocean?
Other shipping. Which may work in in warm Caribbean waters, not so much in the North Atlantic. Some are suggesting a "partner system" where cruise ships pair off for voyages through less busy waters. Not within sight or anything, but perhaps six hours at best possible speed.
Cruise ships do not approach Greenland much anymore, after the Danish government got tired of waiting for international bodies to move and instituted their own, strict rules. If you get in the water in Arctic waters, you die within minutes.
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I don't think there are enough helicopters to rescue everyone. I would think they would have to send an empty huge ship to pick everyone up and that would mean there would have to be these huge empty ships docked at ports around the world just waiting for such an occasion, which is highly doubtful.
People don't weigh that much, nor do they take up much space, once it comes down to "get in this space or perish". You can fit a lot of people in the spaces of, say, a container craft. Hideously uncomfortably, of course.
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Are these cruise ships double hulled?
Nope.
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Will they actually right themselves if they take on water and not sink?
Depends on the amount of water. If you rip the side of a ship open as in the Concordia case, you're in a bad way no matter what.
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You would think that all these advertisers of cruises would also be competing in safety measures.
Yeah, well - "what happens if we sink" isn't an image you want to put in the forefront of your passengers' mind. The best safety measures are well-designed ships (and looking at the loss figures, today's ships are incredibly well-designed) with competent crews. Evacuation is a dangerous undertaking.
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People are probably better off, if they cruise, to take smaller ships, don't you think?
I'd go with newer over smaller - if cruises were my thing, and they aren't.
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Originally Posted by mortpes
These modern ships are top heavy and are not safe in the event of an accident. For example, in the recent mishap, the crew were able to drive the ship ashore to avoid the loss of life of thousands. Everyone really needs to rethink ship design.
Beaching the ship may or may not have been the smartest thing to do. The drastic 180 degree turn to port may have shifted the water in the hull and actually triggered the capsizing. I'm very happy it wasn't on my shoulders to make that decision.
As for top heavy, well - they're fairly wide as well, which makes them right themselves. It's freakin' complex (metacentric height - huh?), but the short version is that the heavy stuff (engines and tankage) is way down below, where the superstructure mostly contains air and people. If you make the ship wider and the cross-section "boxier", you get a ship that rolls slower - which is a good thing. You also get into trouble if there's water aboard.
Naval engineers are fairly smart people, but if you drive the ship into rocks, well - having the water remain on the outside is a basic requirement for buoyancy.
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Originally Posted by Backspace
Guys a double hull isn't going to stop a rock the size of a dump truck when the boat is running WOT which is about 19 and a half knots. That ship weighs about 114,000 tons, you hit anything with it and it's going to rip it wide open.
We are talking 4000 to 6000 people here, plus the question if there are such rescue ships positioned around the globe ready to respond to such a mishap, plus the question of how long it would take to reach the life boats.
The ship I was on was built in the 1960s and has been decommissioned since 1993. Much larger ships have taken it's place. Besides the thousands of rack spaces, these ships also have helicopters, motor boats, as well as a huge hangerbay which could hold another few thousand people easily.
Oh, and the US Navy is deployed in the Mediteranian, the Atlantic, and the Pacific. The two largest Navy bases are on the east and west coast. The Navy and US Coast Guard patrol the Gulf of Mexico on a regular basis. As for your question about helicopters, I personally saw a Navy/Marine helicopter take a HUMVEE and munitions up in the air with no problem. We're not talking about small Huey's. We're talking about huge helicopters used for both heavy cargo and troop transport. Funny you're so worried about taking a ship. I'd much rather A leisurely cruise ship than a plane. I can swim and float away from a ship, I can't do that with a crashed jet.
Oh, and the US Navy is deployed in the Mediteranian, the Atlantic, and the Pacific. The two largest Navy bases are on the east and west coast. The Navy and US Coast Guard patrol the Gulf of Mexico on a regular basis. As for your question about helicopters, I personally saw a Navy/Marine helicopter take a HUMVEE and munitions up in the air with no problem. We're not talking about small Huey's. We're talking about huge helicopters used for both heavy cargo and troop transport. Funny you're so worried about taking a ship. I'd much rather A leisurely cruise ship than a plane. I can swim and float away from a ship, I can't do that with a crashed jet.
Dave,
All of your assertions require that a rescue vessel be within range. Even at 30 knots it would take 8 hours to cover 250 nautical miles plenty enough time for soaking wet survivors to succumb to hypothermia. A CH-53 only has an operational range of 100 nautical miles and while it can lift ungodly weights, weight isn't the ultimate problem. If it can't land it will have to pick up each survivor one at a time and hovering eats up fuel like no tomorrow even assuming perfect sea and weather conditions.
In 1973 we were tasked to medivac a single patient from a cruise ship 300 miles off the eastern seaboard. After stripping every fixture, non-essential gear and jacking the plane 20 degrees so as to squeeze in the last ounce of JP-5 into our HH3F we had to abort the mission because we would be faced with a hover time of less than 20 minutes.
Oh, and the US Navy is deployed in the Mediteranian, the Atlantic, and the Pacific. The two largest Navy bases are on the east and west coast. The Navy and US Coast Guard patrol the Gulf of Mexico on a regular basis. As for your question about helicopters, I personally saw a Navy/Marine helicopter take a HUMVEE and munitions up in the air with no problem. We're not talking about small Huey's. We're talking about huge helicopters used for both heavy cargo and troop transport. Funny you're so worried about taking a ship. I'd much rather A leisurely cruise ship than a plane. I can swim and float away from a ship, I can't do that with a crashed jet.
I am not sure if 'worried' is the word. These are just things I did not think of before and I appreciate all the intelligent explanations that are here.
For me, death by plane is a relatively short incident. Freezing to death in icy waters or being lunch for a fish are less desirable.
I think my point was if the cruise ship were AT SEA, I mean, stuck in the ocean and not near shore as was this one. It would take a long time for another cruise ship to reach them, I would think, wouldn't it? I don't think all those life boats could make it to shore. They certainly could not helicopter four to six thousand people.
My concern is what emergency measures are in place if these ships happen to go down at sea? What efforts would it take to rescue everyone and get them all on land? What are the plans?
No one seems to discuss this logistically.
Part of the reason the plans you're talking about aren't set in stone is because cruise ships cruise all over the world, and unfortunately the plans for a rescue, say, in the Caribbean at the very least differ in the first responders than in the Mediterranean. Also, while many of the cruise lines are owned by only a few parent companies (i.e. Carnival owns Carnival, Princess, Holland America, Costa, etc...) their safety plans on board differ greatly. We've taken cruises with Princess and Holland America, and while the ships within a company will have generall the same safety drills for their passengers, Princess and Holland America had completely different drills than each other.
That's not to say there aren't international standards, as I don't know but would assume there is. But having standards and actually having those standards followed by each and every responder all over the world is a pretty tall order.
As an aside, there are generally nearly 1 1/2 times the capacity of lifeboats, if you were to include the collaspables. Also, I was shocked to hear the passengers didn't even have a formal drill. We had drills with both lines, but they were quite different, as I mentioned. Nonetheless, we knew exactly where to go and what to do in the even of an emergency.
And as for crew members, I'm sure they handled themselves privately in all manners of behavior, but as for their treatment of the passengers, we never had one complaint. Of course, we treated them with kindness and shared an interest in them. I don't like to be waited on hand and foot, and I'm sure they had to deal with people they wanted to throw overboard so we always made sure to treat them like our neighbors. Maybe that's why we always have had excellent treatment. But I just wanted to point that out.
I didn't find you rambling at all. Thanks for the info.
I think, with the Costa, even if they had had the drill, I don't think passengers could have met at their designated muster points. Anyway, what would be the point if the lifeboats could not have been lowered? I think this disoriented the crew because things they were told to do did not apply and no one was coordinating efforts.
People on this thread have really given some good and sound information, which I appreciate. When issues like this arise I tend to first think of liability and try to see who is deflecting blame and I think of what the real issues are and how to prevent another occurrence. So it is nice to be able to converse with people who present facts in some logical order rather than read news accounts which, deservedly, complain about the captain.
But what isn't a rarity is the crime on cruise ships and how it's covered up. Several people have gone "missing" on cruise ships, never to be seen again.
People who have been on ships and have had a family member or friend go "missing" always to seem to be very frustrated with how the situation is handled.
There have been assaults, robberies, and rapes, many times the crew is involved.
These cruise lines aren't real picky when they hire people who do the lower end positions.
Having worked for two cruise lines, you are wrong. "Several" people? Really, how many? Give me a number. How many do you consider, "several" out of the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people who cruise every year?
As for who they hire, I can speak for the two lines I worked for, oh yes they were picky.
Don't talk about things you know nothing about and start spreading false statements.
Having worked for two cruise lines, you are wrong. "Several" people? Really, how many? Give me a number. How many do you consider, "several" out of the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people who cruise every year?
As for who they hire, I can speak for the two lines I worked for, oh yes they were picky.
Don't talk about things you know nothing about and start spreading false statements.
I agree with him. I seem to remember several articles in the news about people who are missing on cruises. I think cruises are a choice for some who want to off themselves.
I also read a book by a guy who worked on those cruise ships. They pay very low wages and work those people very hard. When you employ so many people, esp at low wages, you're bound to get some bad apples.
I know you want, for some reason, to promote cruising, but you should not be so defensive.
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so we always made sure to treat them like our neighbors. Maybe that's why we always have had excellent treatment. But I just wanted to point that out.
