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Old 02-01-2012, 02:55 PM
 
Location: in my imagination
13,584 posts, read 21,356,616 times
Reputation: 10082

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
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Well, Not really.
I spent a few months in the last year or so with a good friend of mine, here in the states, who happens to be a Saudi prince. Really nice guy. I am going there in April for a little while.
The quality of health care in Saudi is excellent. They come here because it is the best health care you can get (depending on your malady).

If you think the US medical system is too expensive, you can always go to Mexico or South America, and get treated there. (it may be cheaper, but better is a matter of debate.)

I am not defending the current system. I just believe that you should not have to pay for my medical issues, as I should not have to pay for yours. You can apply this philosophy to almost anything.

I don't understand this sense of entitlement. Other than what is stated in the Constitution and Bill or Rights, you aren't owed anything, and you really aren't owed it at other peoples' expense.

Geez... maybe we can expand this. Many people need a car to get to work, to be productive members of society. Let's start another program, called 'Obamacar', where everyone is entitled to a free car to go to work. Then we can expand it to "Obamahouse', 'Obamacollegeeducation' and 'Obamavacation'. All we have to do is tax people to death, and then print lots of money.
Yes let us expand on this. I am usually a pro smaller government and keep government out it as much as possible type but there are instances where government works for the people especially when tradtional avenues have been exhausted. With health care so far I don't see a viable solution except to government at least in parial involvement.

You, like many who disagree with government involvment in health care while not offering real time solutions often are quoted as saying how you want to take care of yourself and don't want to be involved in participating to cover others.

That's great that you are able to take care of yourself, the problem is while you are able now, a set of circumstances can leave you wondering what to do with no where to turn. Like, loosing your job, then loosing your insurance and then having a major health crisis that leaves you in debt you could never pay or not able to get care you need because you can't afford it. And that is where a pool, funded by everybody comes in to protect all people.

My house insurance in Florida is a perfect example. Insurance collected for years but after a couple bad storms now refuse to insure or the rates are beyond most to afford. We were left with only one alternative, pool together and insure ourselves under a state government program. It isn't what we wanted but there was no choice.

Sure American medical treatment might be great, but it doesn't matter that it is when you are denied it or can't afford it. So people in that situation are left with looking to government as a alternative. That's the real world. Under current conditions your prince gets all the treatment he wants because he has loads of money and will never have the burden of worry about not being able to afford it or being denied it. Most Americans aren't that fortunate. Most people make 30k to 70k a year, what are they to do when medical costs are 40k a year or more and if no insurance wants to have them because they are risky?
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:01 PM
 
8,594 posts, read 9,093,828 times
Reputation: 5930
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes let us expand on this. I am usually a pro smaller government and keep government out it as much as possible type but there are instances where government works for the people especially when tradtional avenues have been exhausted. With health care so far I don't see a viable solution except to government at least in parial involvement.

You, like many who disagree with government involvment in health care while not offering real time solutions often are quoted as saying how you want to take care of yourself and don't want to be involved in participating to cover others.

That's great that you are able to take care of yourself, the problem is while you are able now, a set of circumstances can leave you wondering what to do with no where to turn. Like, loosing your job, then loosing your insurance and then having a major health crisis that leaves you in debt you could never pay or not able to get care you need because you can't afford it. And that is where a pool, funded by everybody comes in to protect all people.

My house insurance in Florida is a perfect example. Insurance collected for years but after a couple bad storms now refuse to insure or the rates are beyond most to afford. We were left with only one alternative, pool together and insure ourselves under a state government program. It isn't what we wanted but there was no choice.

Sure American medical treatment might be great, but it doesn't matter that it is when you are denied it or can't afford it. So people in that situation are left with looking to government as a alternative. That's the real world. Under current conditions your prince gets all the treatment he wants because he has loads of money and will never have the buredn of worry about not being able to afford it or being denied it. Most Americans aren't that fortunate.
It really gets me when someone says "pay for it yourself, I should have to pay for only me"....short sighted response because health insurance just like all insurance is based on "all are paying premiums," little are collecting on their premium. So, whether one likes it or not they are paying for someone's medical treatment and the investor.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:05 PM
 
23,655 posts, read 17,467,969 times
Reputation: 7471
Quit basing our health care system on the Medicare system and costs will come down. Every time you get government involved costs will go sky high.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,475,124 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
Quit basing our health care system on the Medicare system and costs will come down. Every time you get government involved costs will go sky high.
For every problem, there exists a simple and elegant solution which is absolutely wrong.

- J. Wagoner, U.C.B. Mathematics
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:20 PM
 
3,423 posts, read 3,207,047 times
Reputation: 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
For every problem, there exists a simple and elegant solution which is absolutely wrong.

- J. Wagoner, U.C.B. Mathematics
Do you have an elegant solution? Will it be wrong?
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,475,124 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
Do you have an elegant solution? Will it be wrong?
No. Unlike most people who post on health care forums, I do not have the answer to the "problem".
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:35 PM
 
3,423 posts, read 3,207,047 times
Reputation: 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
No. Unlike most people who post on health care forums, I do not have the answer to the "problem".
Just kidding, of course.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,105,746 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite Ryder View Post
Nobody has a God given right to anything except free air, and if the government could figure out a way to tax free air, they would be doing it.
Actually the government is doing it. That's what EPA regulations are about.

Reminding...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOlover View Post
We do pay for it in Canada by paying Higher Taxes it is something we all agree on.
And you're 30 Million people. That's just a few Million more than the State of Ohio. The Ohio Air and Army National Guard could over-run Canada and destroy it in a matter of weeks.

When you have 30 Million people, it is very easy to reach a consensus on what ought to be done. When you have 308 Million people, it is quite difficult, if not totally impossible.

Canada's system is also very easy to fund, since Economy of Scale comes into play.

I guarandamtee you that when your population gets to be 308 Million like the US, Canadians will not agree on anything, and you will not be able to afford your health care system (where people die waiting in the emergency room).

Until then, we can dispense with the stupid and irrelevant faux comparisons between minor insignificant countries and the US.

Contrasting correctly instead of comparing incorrectly...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
Using that logic, you don't have a right to a job.
You don't. You don't have the right to a job, you only have the right to the opportunity to seek work or to employ yourself, if only the government doesn't interfere in that right.

And in reality, you don't even have that right, as the government interferes. I'll give you two excellent examples of government interference. The Bar Exam. Why can't I take the Bar Exam? Well, because I refuse to pay to $60,000 for people to teach me things I already know, and that aren't even on the test. How stupid is that? You spend 2 years and $60,000 in law school, only to to then spend a year and even more money studying for the Bar Exam because none of the material on the Bar Exam was ever covered or addressed at law school.

And then paralegals.

Even if I was able to work as a paralegal, I cannot, because I'm not "certified" by the State, and I cannot become certified until I take the certification exam, but I cannot take the certification exam, because I have to pay money to get a degree in paralegal studies and have someone "teach" me things I was paid to do by Arthur Andersen, and by the 3rd largest law firm in Florida.

How stupid is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
You don't have a right to your house.
You don't. You only have a right to seek shelter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
I suspect that if our fathers who fought in the last world war had had your attitude, we'd all be singing the German equivalent of kumbaya right about now.
Given that Germany had no amphibious capabilities and no navy to speak of, that would be impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
Yeah, because in America, it is much more important that the poor stay poor than it is to lift up all Americans
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

The US has wasted $TRILLIONS leading people to the trough, but if they refuse to eat or drink from the trough, that is not my problem.

Applying common sense...


Mircea


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeyore1954 View Post
If you are willing to spend up to 1,000,000 per person in no way means that you are going to spend the whole 1,000,000 per person.

Some will be much less a few would probably be more than your top limit. There should be no top limit at all in my opinion as to what a life is worth.

Also the way it is being set up now under the new health care bill it is being funded by people paying for insurance.
Not relevant.

Your argument can be defeated by 2 things: Social Security and Medicare.

Even though you are willing to spend X amount of money per person on Social Security, and even though many die and never receive the X amount you were willing to spend, the program is bankrupt and on the verge of collapse.

You're also ignorant of the "gimme-gimme" attitude of Americans and the application of the Equal Treatment Clause of the 14th Amendment. If you spend $750,000 on one cancer patient, then you'll have to spend $750,000 on all cancer patients, whether they need it or not, because that's how the "gimme-gimme" entitlement crowd and lawyers work in harmony.

Also, you missed the whole point.

It doesn't matter what you're willing to spend; what matters is whether or not you can pay for it, and the reality is that you do not have the money to pay for it now, and you will never have the money to pay for it.

$250,000 per person might as well be $1 Million per person, because you cannot afford to spend $250,000 per person, so there is no possible way you could ever spend $1 Million per person.

This is not fantasy; it's reality; simple math. Sorry, you don't have the money.

Show me the money...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Nobody forces you to go to the doctor. Treat yourself if you don't like the healthcare provided. Pretty simple stuff.
It's not hard. Once we were on fire and trying to limp back to a German airfield. A couple of my NCOs and troops were trying to get the leaks in the hydraulic lines under control, and a few other NCOs and troops were helping the crew chief fight the fires. I was in the bubble talking to the pilots and we nose-dived onto the runway. I bounced out of the troop seats and landed on my neck chipping the bones at C5/C6/C7 and damn near biting my tongue in half. It was pretty gruesome. Blood running down the corners of my mouth and every time I opened my mouth blood sprayed out. Troops said I looked like Dracula. Wasn't any hospitals around, and I couldn't leave anyway since I was running that mission (rotating Dutch Lance warheads for maintenance). I took my bayonet and cauterized it. Only down-side was I had to have oral surgery about a year later, because I didn't do a very good job (but I will next time).

Learning curve...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
In what is supposed to be the most civilized country in the world, I believe in this 21st century that each citizen should have the right to education and healthcare.
And with those rights it is your responsibility to pay for it.

You operate under the grotesquely mistaken assumption that my function on Planet Earth is to subsidize and fund your life-style.

It is not; that's your job.

Refusing to subsidize the life-styles of others...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by revrandy View Post
Healthcare is expensive in the U.S. because of profit and salaries.
That is not why health care is expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheaties View Post
Little/no gov involvement = (theoretically) free market, affordable care
Effective gov involvement = cost controls, affordable care

US model = high gov spending, few cost controls = worst of both worlds
Those things are not relevant. You're health care delivery system in the US is not like that of Europe. The US (and UK) use the Hospital Model, while the rest of the world uses the Clinic Model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
She would have died in any country as there was nothing to be done. The discussion is not about her chances of survival, but about the bill.
Of course there's a bill. Health care isn't "free"; it costs money, time, labor and resources.

Are you suggesting that if someone dies, there ought to be a "money-back guarantee?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
There is more to it than that, because most countries have far more government involvement, yet only half the cost.
No kidding. I've only explained why 2 dozen times on this forum.

If you want an health care system like Europe, then you need to make the changes necessary in your system to so that it is like Europe.

If you want an health care system like Europe, then you will need to close 60% of your hospitals just for starters. Why? Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you not say you wanted an health care system like Europe? Okay, then you have close 60% of your hospitals, because Europe (sans the UK) does not operate on the Hospital Model. Europe uses the Clinic Model, so if you want to be like Europe then you must abandon the costly Hospital Model and adopt the more cost effective and efficient Clinic Model like Europe.

But wait....you cannot adopt the highly effective and cost-efficient Clinic Model to be like Europe, because one of Obama's largest campaign donors, the American Hospital Association (AHA) wrote Section 6001 of the Affordable Health Care Act that outlaws and bars the Clinic Model.

Feeling foolish yet?

How ironic is it that the so-called Affordable Health Care Act prohibits the US from taking the action it needs to have a more cost-effective and efficient health care system?

You need to repeal the Affordable Health Care Act, or at the very least, repeal Section 6001, or your health care will never be affordable.

And what "freedom of choice?"

I can go to Bethesda North owned by the Sisters of Mercy, or Bethesda South owned by the Sisters of Mercy, or Saint Luke East owned by the Sisters of Mercy, or Saint Luke West owned by the Sisters of Mercy, or Mercy Hospital owned by the Sisters of Mercy or Mercy East owned by the Sisters of Mercy.

What the hell kind of choice is that?

That's like choosing from McDonald's, McDonald's, McDonald's, McDonald's, McDonald's, or McDonald's.

Oh, sure, I could go to Jewish Hospital which is part of the same Hospital Robber Baron Cartel that illegally colludes to illegally fix prices.

So now I have a choice of McDonald's, McDonald's, McDonald's, McDonald's, McDonald's, or Chipotle.

And if I go, um, "out-of-Network" and use the other Hospital Robber Baron Cartel that illegally colludes to illegally fix prices that is run by the Sister of Charity and their Good Samaritan, St Francis, St George and other hospitals, that's no choice there at all either.

You guys have a lot to learn...

Mircea
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:54 PM
 
Location: The Wild Wild West
54 posts, read 72,264 times
Reputation: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Those things are not relevant. You're health care delivery system in the US is not like that of Europe. The US (and UK) use the Hospital Model, while the rest of the world uses the Clinic Model.
Not relevant to what?
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Dallas
31,290 posts, read 20,690,103 times
Reputation: 9324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post

Which is why some sort of mandatory coverage is not a bad thing because it actually makes people contribute instead of sticking the rest of us with their bills. Agree?

No.
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