Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Among Muslims I agree with, but that's because Islam is newer and more backwards than Conservative Christianity. No surprise there.
You are, however, wrong about Jews. I'm Jewish. With the exception of Orthodox, most Jews are accepting of gays to various degrees. Reform Judaism (the largest division in North America) fully supports gays, and many congregations will perform same-sex weddings. Reconstructionist completely support gays in every way. And even a large amount of Conservatives, if not the majority have changed their view on gays. Most Jews believe the Bible has historically been interpreted incorrectly on this issue, and the Torah condemns pagan prostitution, not homosexuality.
And even Orthodox, who cling to archaic tradition, and oppose male on male sexual relations have issued recent statements saying they do not support gays trying to change their orientation or marrying someone of the opposite sex, and they should be shown dignity and respect. So even though Orthodox oppose same-sex activity, they tend to treat gays better than Fundamentalist Christians.
And Orthodox are actually struggling with this issue a lot right now due to Orthodox Rabbis admitting they are gay and the Orthodox community does not know how to handle it.
Of all the Abrahamic religions, Judaism is the most accepting of gays.
I think that there's a certain, "this is how we think now, this is how we have always thought" affect going on with regards to homosexuality. Early in Christianity, the attitudes regarding homosexuality (which wasn't even called homosexuality at that time) were much looser. The prevalent attitude was that such relationships happened, and that those relationships should be handled discreetly. "Buggerism" wasn't widely accepted, but neither was it widely stigmatized. Even in Victorian times, there was a sort of "nod of the head" acknowledgement that boys sent away for their education might run into such behavior or even experiment with each other sexually. The stigmatization of homosexuality parallels the rise of fundamentalist religious movements, both by Christians and Muslims which have arisen primarily over the last 150 years, not as a reaction to moderate religious movements but to the increased fluidity of human populations due to faster, easier and more efficient travel, and the demands of economies that are more globalised.
The "this is how we think now, this is how we have always thought" meme pervades our lives in multiple ways. For instance, Americans frequently condemn third world countries for their attitudes about women, without fully realizing that as recently as the 1970's it was legal to rape one's wife in certain states in the United States and even where it was illegal, it was not called rape and was not subject to the penalties of rape. We have made great strides over the past 50 years on this topic, but many people don't realize that we haven't always had these "progressive" ideas about women and their status in society.
When I say these religions condemn homosexuality, I am referring to their religious books (Bible, Torah, Quran). I'm not talking about individuals within these faiths. Do you deny that the Torah does not condemn homosexuality?
To be fair, there are some that deny that even the Bible outright condemns homosexuality.
Nonsense, enforcing equal justice under the Constitution is simply that.
Besides,, the Conservatives at the time of the adoption of the Constitution vociferously opposed the new Constitution, in favor of maintaining the Articles of Confederation.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Can you find the term "equal justice" in the Constitution? (Hint, NO, it isn't there).
Homosexual already HAD equal rights inasmuch as they can marry under the same set of conditions and restrictions as Heteros. Same same, absolutely no difference, discrimination whatsoever.
When I say these religions condemn homosexuality, I am referring to their religious books (Bible, Torah, Quran). I'm not talking about individuals within these faiths. Do you deny that the Torah does not condemn homosexuality?
I don't know about the Quran. But yes, I deny that the Torah condemns homosexuality. For starters, Lesbians are homosexuals too, and the Torah does not condemn sexual relations between women, therefore it's impossible to be condemning all homosexuality. And most Jews view the Leviticus passages as a misinterpretation. I'm guessing you've never bothered to research Leviticus on this issue, seeing as you keep pulling the verse out of context and original language.
And there are only 2 verses in the entire New Testament that even reference same-sex behavior, neither of which refer to the modern day concept of gays. And Jesus said not a single word about it.
So out of over 37,000 verses in the entire English Bible, you pull out rough 4 out of context, mistranslations to condemn hundreds of millions of people? Yeah, that's honest hermeneutics.
Has it ever occurred to you that you don't understand the Bible as much as you think you do? I mean, you keep quoting Leviticus to condemn gays, and you're not even Jewish. Why are you following the Torah when you don't understand it or accept it's authority?
Can you find the term "equal justice" in the Constitution? (Hint, NO, it isn't there).
It also doesn't have the term "Freedom of religion", but the concept itself is present.
Go figure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame Angel
Homosexual already HAD equal rights inasmuch as they can marry under the same set of conditions and restrictions as Heteros. Same same, absolutely no difference, discrimination whatsoever.
And this still holds true in regards to legalizing same-sex marriage: Everyone will still have the ability to marry under the same set of conditions and restrictions. It's just that there is one less restriction.
To be fair, there are some that deny that even the Bible outright condemns homosexuality.
It's all in how you interpret the texts.
I would be one of them, after years of studying the so called 4-5 "clobber" passages, they don't mean what your typical conservative thinks they mean. But when you believe a corrupted 21st Century English translation of a 4000 year old book is the inerrant, infallible Word of God, you don't bother to research if your views are correct. You just assume whatever you believe, God also believes.
Homosexual already HAD equal rights inasmuch as they can marry under the same set of conditions and restrictions as Heteros. Same same, absolutely no difference, discrimination whatsoever.
Fail.
So much so, that not even the lawyers trying to defend Prop 8 bring up this argument.
Can you find the term "equal justice" in the Constitution? (Hint, NO, it isn't there).
Homosexual already HAD equal rights inasmuch as they can marry under the same set of conditions and restrictions as Heteros. Same same, absolutely no difference, discrimination whatsoever.
Gays can't marry the person of their choice, heterosexuals can, due to nothing more than the gender of one's partner, making it inherently unequal and a violation of the 14th Amendment.
Your argument is so ridiculously flawed, lawyers don't even use it when arguing against same-sex marriage in court. Stop using it.
Homosexual already HAD equal rights inasmuch as they can marry under the same set of conditions and restrictions as Heteros. Same same, absolutely no difference, discrimination whatsoever.
It also doesn't have the term "Freedom of religion", but the concept itself is present.
Go figure.
And this still holds true in regards to legalizing same-sex marriage: Everyone will still have the ability to marry under the same set of conditions and restrictions. It's just that there is one less restriction.
Go figure.
True, but justice is, by definition equal. It it isn't equal, it isn't justice. The term the ignorant was looking for was "equal treatment".
As far as same sex, I will see if hetero's can marry same sex. No doubt there are some hetero men or women who want to marry other men or women, not for romantic love, but for paternal love AND (the real reason, IMHO, homosexuals want same sex marriage) the benefits under laws, regulations etc., provided married couples.
I am curious, though, what is going to happen when one guy throws a hissy-fit when his partner leaves a dirty butt-plug in the sink, or they argue over whose turn it is to "catch", etc, and they end up wanting a divorce.
Wait until they hit the "communal property" and alimony provisions of divorce that come along with marriage. They will probably have another hissy fit and demand special treatment again.
It should be good for a few laughs when the pitcher complains that the catcher just stayed home all day and played with his flower-arranging, painting, pottery-turning etc., while the pitcher was out busting his ass earning a living for both of them, and now the catcher wants half of what was accumulated during the "marriage"!!!
IMHO, same sex marriage makes an abject mockery of the vital institution of marriage and weakens it beyond what "no fault" divorce already has, and no, I don't think the "apply a sledge hammer to its head while it is down" approach to strengthening marriage will do any good at all (as certain high and lite people around here have so much as said).
What weakens the foundation, weakens the building, and same-sex unquestionably weakens marriage (a foundational institution of society).
And no, it is NOT about me, or you or any individual or small minority of individuals, it is about our society and its preservation (or destruction).
Small, militant minority activists groups have been beating on our nation trying to destroy it for their own purposes, Whether it be the gun grabbers, the "man-made global warming freakazoids, the anti-fishing and hunting nut cases, same sex marriage activists, or whatever, their particular "cause" is, the real goal is to take America down so then can re-form it in their own, totalitarian vision. Hell, Obama and prior Democrats have created a culture of dependency (20% of Americans are now wholly-dependent on gov't-delivered taxpayer largesse for the daily bread, butter, beer, tobacco, and even cell phones, for crying out loud.
The reason these programs exist is NOT compassion (that is only the mask that hides the real purpose). The real purpose is to foster dependency, which equates to control (the contemporary version of slavery, which has existed in one form or another throughout ancient and "modern" history. Who powered roman ships (galley slaves), who built the pyramids (Egypt's slaves).
Now, he is attempting to blame banks and take money from them for "bad home loans" that were made to people unable to service them, as if it were the banks fault they were issued, when the fact is that the terms of the Community Redevelopment Act, signed by Jimmy Carter MANDATED the loans, and activists (read "rabble-rousers" and "shake-down artists" such as Obama in his earlier years, did all they could do increase the number of such loans made. Now he has his nose in the air and blames the companies, he and others, pursuant to Carter's Redevelopment Act, forced to make such loans.
Every great institution/entity has such attacks. Web sites, computer networks, operating systems, companies etc., all have their wanna-be destroyers yapping at their heels. Some succeed. Nations as well. There is always somebody who wants to destroy, what others have created.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, NOT political correctness.
Wake up, before the shackles you see are made of steel and are around your ankles.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
