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Old 02-14-2012, 10:29 AM
 
8,091 posts, read 5,909,991 times
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People like to focus on Iran and their desire to gather nukes....

What you never hear them talk about is the sanctions we place on them that irritate and antagonize the hell out of them.

Forcing UN resolution is criminal.

But you will be accused of being unpatriotic if you have a shred of objectivity.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:12 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,795 posts, read 7,287,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
I'm not buying the whole "they're a Messianic people bent on destroying the world" nonsense.

Look...they want a nuke, they're a sovereign nation, and have the right to build one. We'll just have to learn to live with it just like we learned to live with Pakistan having one.
If you are not going to acknowledge the possibility that the entire premise of the article which is our own destruction is possible, then you have absolutely nothing to contribute to the discussion. Why did you even respond?
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:58 AM
 
29,981 posts, read 42,926,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
I'm not buying the whole "they're a Messianic people bent on destroying the world" nonsense.

Look...they want a nuke, they're a sovereign nation, and have the right to build one. We'll just have to learn to live with it just like we learned to live with Pakistan having one.
They are not bent on destroying the whole world, only that which is not capitulating to Islam.

One cannot rationally dismiss the extreme violence for which the religious leaders in Iran are calling. Their wishes for the destruction of Israel are based in the Koran and the bringing about of events which they believe will bring Islam to triumph over all by initiating the return of their 12th Imam.

Imam Mahdi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
People like to focus on Iran and their desire to gather nukes....

What you never hear them talk about is the sanctions we place on them that irritate and antagonize the hell out of them.

Forcing UN resolution is criminal.

But you will be accused of being unpatriotic if you have a shred of objectivity.
We failed as a country to keep any other from obtaining weapons of nuclear destruction. In reality, with China and Russia standing firmly behind Iran, and with N. Korea willing to sell to the highest bidder, there will be little the US can do to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons either. Hubris, not patriotism, keeps our leaders from admitting this because to do so in their eyes, is admitting defeat of the US as a military Super Power.

When martyrdom is the cornerstone upon which a religious movement is built what we may consider as "rational" bears no meaning. Radical Islam cares not for the survival of her own people as it embarks upon staging the events it believes will bring the return of their 12th Imam.

I don't have the answers of how to deal with a rabid wolf other than to put it down or pray that the disease kills the host before it can do damage on such a scale as to wipe out Israel. I have to believe that Israel will do what she needs to in order to survive; and the US needs to stay out of her way and allow her, as a sovereign nation, to do just that.

Last edited by lifelongMOgal; 02-14-2012 at 12:11 PM..
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:22 PM
 
56,988 posts, read 35,189,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Actually I think they signed the NPT so that sorta trumps thier *right* to build one.

However, that's all "treaty crap" with the UN which is worth about as much as toilet paper and many countries have indeed built nukes in defiance of them.

I don't see Iran doing anything stupid with a nuke. In fact, they may have to learn the hard way like the US and USSR did that bluster can lead to some extremely scary consequences.

Then again, I think we can all agree that nuke proliferation can indeed get scary. At what point would we not want every country in the world with their own nuke? I mean at what point would we finally get serious about NPT?

I don't know. Frankly, I suspect that in the future....perhaps long after I'm gone....someone will pop off a nuke either accidental or otherwise or one will be stolen and used and all of the sudden there will be this come to jesus about all the nukes we've allowed to spawn over the years.

P.S. I think I find the people denying Iran is making nukes to be more out of touch than the ones claiming they will actually use one.
The "NPT." Hey Mathguy, let me have your gun and promise me that you'll never buy another one. Meanwhile, i'm gonna go home and play with my own guns. LMAO...

The Iranians just want to look big and bad like everyone else on a tough block. I sympathize. Who am i to judge? If Pakistan and India can play in that game, why can't i have next?

I don't buy the idea that the Iranians want to give a suitcase nuke to terrorists, nor do i think they want to bomb Israel. I've seen no evidence of that except for some twisted words routinely spewed out by the knumbskulls on the right in this country about "wanting to blow Israel off the map." No one ever said such a thing and even if they did, so what?

I'm still trying to figure out why if Mutually Assured Destruction was good enough for us during the Cold War with Russia, why isn't it good enough for Israel to live under?
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:25 PM
 
56,988 posts, read 35,189,362 times
Reputation: 18824
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
If you are not going to acknowledge the possibility that the entire premise of the article which is our own destruction is possible, then you have absolutely nothing to contribute to the discussion. Why did you even respond?
Excuse me, but you posted a link that i couldn't have POSSIBLY known the contents of, and just because i think the contents are horsedung, you don't want me to actually SAY SO simply because i disagree?

If you wanted only right wing myrmidons to respond in this thread, then say so in the OP.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:28 PM
 
56,988 posts, read 35,189,362 times
Reputation: 18824
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post
They are not bent on destroying the whole world, only that which is not capitulating to Islam.

One cannot rationally dismiss the extreme violence for which the religious leaders in Iran are calling. Their wishes for the destruction of Israel are based in the Koran and the bringing about of events which they believe will bring Islam to triumph over all by initiating the return of their 12th Imam.
Yea, i can rationally dismiss it. In fact i just did. It's a load of nonsense.

Get used to a nuclear Iran and the fact that Israel will have to live under the policy of MAD just like we did (or do).

But i'm not willing to go to war over something nonsensical as babble about the 12th Imam.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:36 PM
 
8,091 posts, read 5,909,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post
T


When martyrdom is the cornerstone upon which a religious movement is built what we may consider as "rational" bears no meaning. Radical Islam cares not for the survival of her own people as it embarks upon staging the events it believes will bring the return of their 12th Imam.
Let me ask you this.....

Do we have religious radicals in this country?? Do we fight in the name of God?

Do we, not much unlike Islam, hide the extremists acts behind the religious shell of altruism that Religions preach??
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:48 PM
 
4,127 posts, read 5,066,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Actually I think they signed the NPT so that sorta trumps thier *right* to build one.
Instead of putting words in your mouth as you seem to like to do to me, I'll be very careful to state this as a question: Do you feel that since Israel did NOT sign the NPT, they should be allowed to stock up on Nukes unchecked?
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,159,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Did you read the article?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
If you are not going to acknowledge the possibility that the entire premise of the article which is our own destruction is possible, then you have absolutely nothing to contribute to the discussion. Why did you even respond?
There's no point in reading the article.

I'll go ahead and take credit for another Thread Kill now.

Quote:
Undoubtedly, a country that is floating on oil, and has a plentiful supply of domestic energy, does not need nuclear power.
And wow, at the top of the web-page it declares:

Financial Sense®
Applying Common Sense to the Markets


Let's start with the double-standard:



So according to the idiot author, what's his name? JR Nyquist, yes, clearly an expert in double standards, Iran can only have a nuclear program when someone like a shah holds dictatorial power.

As an economist or "expert" in finance, Nyquist is a dumb-ass and has zero understanding of either.

Nyquist ignores all of the following facts:

1) Iran will become a net-importer of oil ~ 2015 which will tax world oil supply and drive prices up
2) Iran's hydro-electric power capacity is maxed out.
3) Iran' electrical power plants use oil and natural gas.
4) Iran has minimal water resources.
5) Iran has had an unemployment rate in the 20+% for decades.
6) Iran is a net-importer of food.

Iran's economic goals should be to:

1) reduce the perennial 20+% unemployment to <10%
2) become a net-exporter of food
3) remain a net-exporter of oil
4) increase water supply
5) reduce dependence on oil and natural gas for electricity

Iran's economic goals can only be achieved through nuclear power.

Because that is true, what negotiating leverage does the US have over Iran? None. What does the US possibly have to offer to Iran? Nothing, unless the US wants to give Iran free oil, free natural gas, free food, free water and $Billions for investment for economic expansion.

What government in the right mind wants 20+% unemployment year after year after year?

What government in the right mind wants to be a net-importer of food and a net-importer of oil?

Now everyone can see how stupid Nyquist really is.

Iran can decrease unemployment, while simultaneously increasing food production to the point of self-sustainability and then to the point of being a net-exporter and reaping profits, but only if it gets more water.

The only way Iran can get more water is by using desalinization plants which are heavily energy intensive, meaning they consume megawatts of electricity.

Iran should build more oil and natural gas-fired power plants? That is stupid when Iran is sitting on a huge supply of uranium ore. Iran can build one single nuclear reactor to power 9-12 desalinization plants on the coast, and that is in fact the sole purpose of one of the dual-reactors at Bushwehr, which is something Nyquist totally overlooks, because he is an horrid economist.

Iran can use that water to irrigate the entire Iranian Plateau and bring it to life agriculturally, reducing unemployment while increasing food production shifting Iran from a net-importer to a net-exporter.

Iran can also generate surplus electrical power for and export it to neighboring countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan to help expedite the development of those countries.

This claim...

Quote:
Undoubtedly, a country that is floating on oil, and has a plentiful supply of domestic energy, does not need nuclear power.
...is completely refuted and any competent economist should see that.

Quote:
The question is whether a certain military action will be taken or not.
That question is irrelevant.

It's easy for those pushing an agenda to prey on the fear and ignorance of others. Plutonium production requires loading a reactor with HEU at 3%-5%, yet the IAEA report clearly states in no uncertain terms that Iran is enriching uranium to 20%.

That is clear and compelling proof that Iran is not seeking plutonium for use in nuclear weapons. If anything, it would appear Iran is trying to produce thorium, which would only prove that Iran is using nuclear power for peaceful purpose.

Perhaps the “major achievements in the nuclear domain” Nyquist wrings his hands over is a thorium nuclear reactor.

Um, gosh, doesn't India have a thorium reactor? Isn't China into thorium reactors?

Get it?

Man the ignorance is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

The Telegraph calls thorium reactors "safe nuclear" and the buzz-word referring to thorium reactors is "green nuclear."

It would make economic and financial sense for Iran to trade thorium for thorium reactor technology, or other technology, but Nyquist is way too stupid to see that.

Bombing Iran's nuclear power plants and their heavy water facility will neither halt nor destroy their ability to produce nuclear weapons. It will only halt Iran's attempt at producing plutonium nuclear weapons, but as you can see, the evidence provided by the IAEA clearly demonstrates that Iran is not attempting plutonium production.

Do you want to know what the US really fears most?

The US fears that Iran will develop economically and create a stable Middle Class.

And why would the US fear that?

Because once a country has a stable Middle Class, it is nearly impossible for the US to take any actions to overthrow the government, or interfere in the economy, or interfere in the country socially or politically.

And a stable Middle Class in Iran would only push for more diversity in world trade currency, meaning the likelihood is even greater that Iran will shift to basket currencies and never return to the US Dollar as a trade currency.

Anyway, as I've demonstrated, the author's premise is flawed, and then he cherry picks info and rants on a religion that he knows nothing about.

Smirking...


Mircea
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:08 PM
 
13,186 posts, read 14,975,697 times
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If Iran is so crazy as the OP thinks, why haven't they ever attacked another country in modern history?

The fact of the matter is right wing necocons, right wing Israeli apologists, are currently conducting a wave of pro war propaganda designed to scare people about Iran.

You can read all about it here from a credible source. http://www.salon.com/2012/02/14/us_m...ran/singleton/
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