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Regarding "tv's in the ghetto" given that on my local 'craigslist site' they are being sold for as little as $10 and in some cases given away, that means nothing.
This is my favorite example that is meaningless. A TV is no longer a luxury good. You can get one NEW for less than $100. Having $100 once in a blue moon doesn't mean you are a spend thrift.
Everyone is entitled to a little 'something' every once in awhile. That doesn't make them irresponsible.
Just cause you see me with an expensive bag, doesn't mean it wasn't a birthday gift
Just cause you see me with nice things in my home, doesn't mean it wasn't acquired over many years.
Just cause you see items in my grocery cart that you wouldn't buy, doesn't mean I'm not cooking for a special occassion.
Ive been there, but I changed my life to meet my level of income. My wife and I moved states because our current state had a terrible debt to income ratio. We did our homework and moved to a state that was better. We have both worked 2-3 jobs and odd jobs in our lives. We shop for the best deals in everything we do.
It isn't always easy to relocate. I live in one of those states now. it's hard to save money to make the move. You have to have a job in the new location. What if you have family in your former state who support you (in non-financial matters)? Not everyone can relocate.
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A lot of people don't think it is possible to live fine on minimum wage jobs. You can, but you work a lot harder to be comfortable. Some people are just not willing to work that hard. Though if they never do, they will never improve and it doesn't help when there is a bunch of blow hards running around telling them that it isn't their fault, that all of their problems are due to someone else. That only breeds people who think they are owed something and they live life with chips on their shoulders.
How many people who don't need therapy of some sort do you think that consists of? What do you think the ratio to non-hard working/ to hard working struggling people are? I bet the answer is the latter.
Ive been there, but I changed my life to meet my level of income. My wife and I moved states because our current state had a terrible debt to income ratio. We did our homework and moved to a state that was better. We have both worked 2-3 jobs and odd jobs in our lives. We shop for the best deals in everything we do.
A lot of people don't think it is possible to live fine on minimum wage jobs. You can, but you work a lot harder to be comfortable. Some people are just not willing to work that hard. Though if they never do, they will never improve and it doesn't help when there is a bunch of blow hards running around telling them that it isn't their fault, that all of their problems are due to someone else. That only breeds people who think they are owed something and they live life with chips on their shoulders.
A. I would think that not everyone has access to full-time employment, or lives in an area where they can get enough multiple part-time jobs to work 40-45 hours a week steadily. There's no universal guarantee that there will always be more jobs available (even low-paying ones) than people willing to take them. And even if you do get full time, low-wage employment, the turnover is pretty high and a well-placed firing, lay off, or health problem can easily destroy whatever it is you've been trying to build or maintain. The cost of living also varies widely and, while full-time low wage labor may be enough to secure some minimum standards of existence in one area, they won't necessarily in others.
B. "It isn't their fault" -- It isn't necessarily, though it may be partially. It takes a lot more effort to get ahead coming from certain environments than it does coming from others. The guy who grows up in the upper-middle class family likely won't have to put in nearly the same degree of effort to have the same level of success as someone who grows up in more disadvantaged conditions. So it's very rarely entirely "their fault," unless you're describing someone who was fed everything on a silver spoon and failed solely because of their own laziness, for instance. In most cases there are far too many external factors to blame someone entirely for their own misfortune.
However, in some instances, there aren't any other solutions for people but to stretch the budget. I'm not saying in terms of luxury - but rather necessity.
Agreed, but part of that is an education issue as well. For instance, my wife and I lived in a town and state where it was WAY to expensive to live. We moved to a better debt to income ratio area and prices suddenly became more reasonable. Some people aren't willing to do what it takes to make things easier. My wifes friend is a perfect example. When we were getting ready to move, she was shocked to think we could "leave" and though she agreed that the cost of living was terrible, she wasn't willing to do anything about it.
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
Cost of housing, whether it be a house or apartment, is out of control. It's either buy an overpriced house or pay inflated rent. The Apartment complexes know that the housing market is screwed up, so they're trying to extort as much money as possible. Like you said, what they can get out of you rather than what it's worth.
Again, a location of debt to income ratio. The houses in town in California where I lived shot up so high it was silly, but the wage index stayed the same (all of the southern California home sellers were rushing our market and buying it all up causing huge price increases). It didn't bother them, I mean they sold a 900 sq ft house for 900 thousand, so whats paying 500 thousand for a 1800 sq ft house? Apartments went up as well due to this because they could now justify the increase.
Now on the other hand, here in Texas I can get that same 1800 sq ft house for 110 thousand. I can find a 900 sq ft house for 50-60 thousand. Rent at its cheapest (before section 8 discounts) can be found for about 340 a month. Also, the wage index is much more appropriate meaning a persons earnings go much much further. It isn't all places in Texas, but many areas in the metro area. Not only that, but jobs are quite vast in all areas. My point is, if where someone lives isn't making it happen, move. It costs to move, but the debt acquired from a move to a place where you can actually save is worth it as it will get paid off.
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
Electric companies know that the biggest time for electricity usage is the summer. The price per unit of electricity is double during a time when people need to use high-electric using Air Conditioners. Gas companies know that their biggest time is winter.
Yes, this happens. Some companies are worse than others. Yet here, we have a HUGE list of companies competing with each other. You can get plans that are fair. For instance, one company here allows you to lock in a price on your kilowatts. I think I saw it as 11.4 cents per kw. With care and reserved use of your utilities in a very small dwelling, the price can be VERY low. Like 40-50 during the winter and 80 ish during the summer. That isn't even getting into the "low income" plans they offer or special packages that allow people to get a lower rate providing they can stay under a certain usage.
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
Vehicle-wise... I drive a Focus ZX4. It cost me a total of $12K+interest. But it's paid off. The public transportation now costs $1.50/bus - if you have to transfer buses, you pay another $1.50 - then you pay to get back.
Well, other than in really tight urban areas, public transportation is really a waste. Here in Texas, it really is a running joke. That said, I own my truck as well. Its about 13 years old and I should probably get a new one otherwise repair costs can take away the benefit of owning the vehicle. That said, people can easily pick up a loan for a 2-3k car that gets them from A to B and it would be actually in better shape than what I have. If people really want to, they can buy a very cheap, but reliable car. Some have a hard time though as they "want" the more expensive ones.
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
Another problem facing many families is that the cost of k-12 education has become more and more costly. Many parents don't realize how bad it really is until their kid needs a 2 or 3-inch binder for each individual class because the teacher will sometimes collect and check the binders for a grade. There's also the $100 calculator that has to be purchased. Some classes will require other certain (stupid) supplies that get used up and have to be purchased again and again. The children need those supplies - so the suppliers (the stores) - have raised the prices extensively because that's what they can get out of the parents.
Well, I don't pay for kids (I can't afford them to a level that one would deserve), but I do pay for college expenses for both my wife and I. We take loans (we pay the interest on them) and while my wives masters is online so we don't have to deal with the book costs, mine is nuts in that every book I have is a science book and somehow they think it is worth 150-270 bucks a book. Not to mention, the software I have to afford (even when it is educational level) still costs me an arm and a leg.
So I understand the "need" for those things, but I have to say this and I am not be callous, but shouldn't the parents have thought about that when they decided to have a child? I know, some people make mistakes and life happens, but we do have to keep that in mind though, that... well is a bit of a responsibility issue is it not?
I mean, my mother had a hard time, but she went without quite a bit to make sure my brother and I had what we needed. She sacrificed her lifestyle for the sake of her children. How many mothers these days truly do this in every way possible? Many do I am sure, but do you see my point?
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
Food. Everyone needs it. About the only food that is priced right is Maruchan Ramen (($.10/package)). Just about everything else in the grocery stores is vastly overpriced. Anything remotely healthy for you is way overpriced - because the stores know that they can extort it out of you. $1 for a 4oz yogurt? I understand inflation... but not more than 6 years ago, I could buy the same non-fat non-kiddy yogurt package for a quarter.
My wife and I buy about 250 bucks of food a month. Sometimes it shoots up to 300, but that is usually the cycling of some bulk items such as laundry, dishwasher soap, etc...
We shop at Walmart, Costco, and some of the other stores depending on various price deals they have. We also cook a lot of things. For instance, I make a mean Beef Vegetable Soup and the amount I make lasts us about a week and only costs about 12-20 dollars in ingredients. You will certainlly get tired of the same old thing, but we aren't talking about luxury, but living.
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
Insurance is the same way. It's really necessary to have insurance for the "What ifs." Somebody hits your car and is uninsured, you trip down a flight of stairs, etc.
Car insurance for me (PL/PD) runs around 32 bucks a month. As for Health Insurance, If I remember right, my wife and I were paying for a good plan for about 250 a month (including dental) before she got a job that her work full covers.
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
And that is why you've been able to get what you need at a good price. There's no class in high school called "Insurance 101" or anything to teach the ins and outs of Insurance buying/using/claiming. I get good Car Insurance rates right now because my friend works for Geico.
My first "real" line of work was in the IT industry. Did you know that I got the job (over some with college degree's) at the time with only having a high school education? I did that because while I was working at my minimum wage crap jobs, I was saving my money and buying various books at the book store. I then saved money for testing certifications so I could use that as push for getting better jobs.
I was a "D" student in high school with a counselor telling me that she was just going to "get me through" because it was obvious I was never going to seek a higher education. Me being an "uneducated" youth somehow decided to "learn on my own" and now that I have been in college, I laugh at the arrogance of my counselor who thought they "knew" my potential and capabilities in life.
while it would be nice to add education like you mentioned, I find it rather hard to do when we keep lowering our education standards. I agree though, we need to educate children, but to be honest a lot of these issues are basic common sense (if it is common these days). All you need to know how to do is read and understand that you should think before you make an action. That is, think about the consequences of those actions. Thats all you really need to know. If you can read, you can learn anything. Absolutely anything. Heck, even if you can't read you can find products that will teach you how these days. /shrug
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
As for the government taking care of healthcare. I think the private sector should still exist for those who can afford it. It's just that free or reduced healthcare costs should be available to everyone - no matter what their income says. Either that or - It shouldn't matter where you work for insurance premiums, premiums should be the same. Why does it matter if a person works at a company with 30 people or 30 THOUSAND people?
I do too, but more specifically I think that the "taxes" should be associated with those who want the system. I don't think we should force people to pay for a system they neither want or will use. I know what will happen when the entire health care system becomes "Medicare" and I want nothing to do with. What is even worse is that if I am taxed for it, I will be paying double the price for health care to use a private one. That rally seems like a business pitch I don't feel being the sucker for. I mean, I make decisions all the time to manage my expenses and now the "mob authority" is going to turn around and force me to spend like them? I honestly don't know what to think. I mean, wow...
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
A luxury expense is a game system. A luxury expense goes down in price when there's not enough purchases. A good example: Playstation 3. They've almost halved in price because not as many people were willing or able to fork up the dough. Because people were being smart and did not "get now, pay later" over it ((much)), prices have gone down considerably.
Luxury. As in, can I live without it? Here is what I can live without and have in my past. TV, Radio, Games, Cell Phones, Brand name clothing, Movies, entertainment books, worthless knick knacks, eating out, sports events, Amusement parks, Gym Memberships, Expensive cars, jewelry, and the list goes on.
Those are luxuries. It would be easier to define what a necessity is than it would be to list all of the luxuries to be honest.
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Originally Posted by Kuharai
As for TVs in the "ghetto" - if you save $5 here and $5 there - you can go to the Thrift Store and get a 20" TV for less than $50. Still doesn't mean you can afford insurance.
So, yes, people need to lower their luxury spending - but there's really no way to reduce your "necessity" spending.
Roseba and Greatday - I don't care who subsidizes who. In fact, nobody really does. Get off the horses, return them to the barn, and walk back to the real conversation
I have reduced luxuries. The problem is that people view some luxuries as necessities and that is really what gets them in trouble in the first place. A necessity is the bare minimum. What you need to live, not what you need to be happy, that is something we have the freedom to pursue, that is "The pursuit of happiness". We aren't promised it, we have no right for it to be handed to us, but that we can seek obtain it through our own efforts.
It isn't always easy to relocate. I live in one of those states now. it's hard to save money to make the move. You have to have a job in the new location. What if you have family in your former state who support you (in non-financial matters)? Not everyone can relocate.
It isn't easy. It won't be, its darn hard to be honest. I have no found memories of it. Its scary, unpredictable and down right frustrating at times. I did though, I went into some pretty heavy debt to make it happen. My wife and I also moved "without jobs" which really seemed to scare the crap out of our friends. We moved, we survived and we are better for it. It isn't that people can't relocate, but more so "are they willing to deal with the hardships and fears that come with it?"
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Originally Posted by roseba
How many people who don't need therapy of some sort do you think that consists of? What do you think the ratio to non-hard working/ to hard working struggling people are? I bet the answer is the latter.
It would be a guess, so I would rather not "assume" a specification percent or number. Think about it the other way. Do you really think most people have these severe medical issues that prevent them from doing what I mentioned? I mean, it is more practical (if we are talking about guessing) to come to the conclusion that there are more able people than there are not.
Also, do we not have a huge amount of plans already that help people with these issues? From those that I do know who have severe medical issues, they are already getting quite a bit of government help as it is. Are the majority? Are they even 1/2? Are they even a 1/4? If we are a nation that is predominately medically afflicted people who can't function normally, then I guess I have missed most of them throughout my life. I don't expect that to be "proof", but it sure does seem odd when you go out in the world and see it filled with functional people and yet when you read the news, the claim is that we are invalids. /shurg
B. "It isn't their fault" -- It isn't necessarily, though it may be partially. It takes a lot more effort to get ahead coming from certain environments than it does coming from others. The guy who grows up in the upper-middle class family likely won't have to put in nearly the same degree of effort to have the same level of success as someone who grows up in more disadvantaged conditions. So it's very rarely entirely "their fault," unless you're describing someone who was fed everything on a silver spoon and failed solely because of their own laziness, for instance. In most cases there are far too many external factors to blame someone entirely for their own misfortune.
That's an excellent point.
How many people can drink and party till they are 40, disappear from their jobs, and fail to produce positive results at their place of employment, and then, end up becoming President of the United States.
Whether you like Bush or not, he is a prime example of a checkered past with nearly endless opportunities to try again.
Do you think you or I would have gotten that many breaks?
This is my favorite example that is meaningless. A TV is no longer a luxury good. You can get one NEW for less than $100. Having $100 once in a blue moon doesn't mean you are a spend thrift.
Everyone is entitled to a little 'something' every once in awhile. That doesn't make them irresponsible.
Just cause you see me with an expensive bag, doesn't mean it wasn't a birthday gift
Just cause you see me with nice things in my home, doesn't mean it wasn't acquired over many years.
Just cause you see items in my grocery cart that you wouldn't buy, doesn't mean I'm not cooking for a special occassion.
Just throwing some ideas out there.
There was a report I read a long time ago comparing the poor in america to 3rd world countries. It doesn't make anything a fact, its just an observation. They compared basic living necessities in the US to those in those other poor countries. Their observations showed that while they are poor in the US, poor seemed to have a different "meaning" in the US as it is in other countries.
If I compared myself to Britney Spears who pulls in an estimated 700k a month, well... I am poor beyond measure, but if I compare myself to some low income families in some cities, I am quite rich and have been told this by some friends who were making much less than I. Heck, my dads side of the family were filled with people thought my dad was super rich and I can't help how funny it was knowing the truth about my parents income at the time. They were responsible, so they could afford some things. That translated to "silver spoon" and your filthy greedy rich by his side of the family.
Point is, much of it is a perspective issue. There are problems, but our poor in the US are not as poor as some would claim them to be.
A. I would think that not everyone has access to full-time employment, or lives in an area where they can get enough multiple part-time jobs to work 40-45 hours a week steadily. There's no universal guarantee that there will always be more jobs available (even low-paying ones) than people willing to take them. And even if you do get full time, low-wage employment, the turnover is pretty high and a well-placed firing, lay off, or health problem can easily destroy whatever it is you've been trying to build or maintain. The cost of living also varies widely and, while full-time low wage labor may be enough to secure some minimum standards of existence in one area, they won't necessarily in others.
Thats why your research. We moved to a better place. We knew there would be jobs, not because we "thought" so, but because we "knew" so through our research.
When we moved, we had done the math on just about every aspect of the economic, social, and political infrastructure here. We had jobs in less than a week.
People can move, they have to look at the numbers. Learn about what will help them, educate themselves. Heck, I called Texas police stations to get crime reports on areas. I called the City Hall and asked for statistics on their economy. I knew the wage index and their unemployment rates, their level of job availability and educational requirement percentages.
There were better cost of living areas in other states, but not with the balance we were looking for. We needed everything to be just right to fit our needs. People can do it, it is just scary and some are unwilling to put in that level of commitment.
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Originally Posted by fishmonger
B. "It isn't their fault" -- It isn't necessarily, though it may be partially. It takes a lot more effort to get ahead coming from certain environments than it does coming from others. The guy who grows up in the upper-middle class family likely won't have to put in nearly the same degree of effort to have the same level of success as someone who grows up in more disadvantaged conditions. So it's very rarely entirely "their fault," unless you're describing someone who was fed everything on a silver spoon and failed solely because of their own laziness, for instance. In most cases there are far too many external factors to blame someone entirely for their own misfortune.
Irresponsibility isn't a pure translation of "its your fault". A measure of a persons character is defined not by how they succeed, but how they handle their failures. A person who always succeeds learns nothing.
People have problems in their lives, we all do. Some are worse than others, but what we do with those problems and how we take responsibility for our actions and the results from them will ultimately decide our progress in life. If we fail to recognize that something we did may have led to our problems, then we will never learn from that mistake.
Just like the perception of what a luxury is and what a necessity is, there are perceptions of what is a cause of a hardship and what led to it. Refuse to honestly recognize that and you will continue to make that mistake over and over. One can not fix a problem if they refuse to accept the cause of it.
How many people can drink and party till they are 40, disappear from their jobs, and fail to produce positive results at their place of employment, and then, end up becoming President of the United States.
Whether you like Bush or not, he is a prime example of a checkered past with nearly endless opportunities to try again.
Do you think you or I would have gotten that many breaks?
Happens all the time in Hollywood and yet these are the people who seem to be championing the "poor" and their cause? Personally, Id want my role model to be someone who had nothing and made something of themselves. Used to be the "American dream", though these days we tend to look at all those who made their success through luck, fad, and hype as models for successful venture. /shrug
What you're describing is anecdotal experiences, not particularly useful when making vast, broad judgements about 13% of American society.
And still you offer no proof of what you say? Can we not believe our own eyes? I believe mine. I live in a small town so it is no secret who is on welfare. When you see a new baby in the family every year like clock work. I pity the child because they without some great intervention are handicapped at birth. Like I have said and maintain not all are users and abusers. A single mom she needs our help. A teen mom? She needs and deserves our help. Families with two parents living at home and neither work????? They need a kick in the pants to jump start their work ethic. The welfare programs will never produce independance from the system. Its like putting a cast on a broken arm and never removing it. Workfare is a much better idea. It provides the same help and it is earned. No one need bow their heads in shame nor be looked down upon. Systems like work fare are already in place. URS in Pa has programs for mentally handicapped folks. Many many company's offer such things for low skilled workers. Its a win win deal dor all.
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