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Jews asked Mormons to stop these ridiculous baptisms of our dead. Thoughout history Jews often been told to convert and then fined or killed when we refused.
We asked politely and were reassured that such baptisms had stopped.
Mormons have freely ignored our wishes and openly lied to us.
That's very jerkish behavior. I'm sorry a great many Mormons are apparently incapable of being civilized human beings who show respect to people of other religions.
At this point what I personally believe about Mormonism is that it is stupid cult filled with lying, arrogant, thoughtless, not very bright twits who are unable to adhere to reasonable and polite requests.
I never gave much thought to Mormonism and its possibility of being cult-like, but after some of the outlandish responses on this thread, I am now convinced that it reeks of cult aspects.
you're welcome; one of the main reasons i did it was because it just seemed natural to repay some of what so many others have done before me.
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I looked up your profile and noticed you are an admirer of Geronimo. As am I. Now I'm wondering if he got a posthumous baptism. Hmmmm....
if some mormon out there is his great grandkid or something, it is possible. but i don't know. whether he decides in the afterlife that Jesus is the one he wants to follow, or doesn't, i respect how he fought for his people.
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
It's really very simple.
Jews asked Mormons to stop these ridiculous baptisms of our dead. Thoughout history Jews often been told to convert and then fined or killed when we refused.
you keep bringing that up as if it actually means something in this argument. no one is asking anyone to convert. no one is trying to convert your dead relatives.
and no one––at least, no mormons anyway––are threatening fines or execution of jews don't suddenly embrace the bible and the book of mormon.
have you heard of the following phrase? "your ladder is leaning up against the wrong wall." there are other variations, but the meaning is the same.
you can't have a reasonable discussion about this topic if you refuse to acknowledge certain facts. and by that, i don't mean that you simply have to agree with me. but as subjective as this topic is, there is a lot of objective foundation that you are currently dismissing, such as the fact that no one else but mormons are actually involved in any of this, and the fact that the baptism therefore doesn't actually affect anyone else.
after we define the objective facts, then you can proceed to bash away with your holy anger at the subjectives. but you just keep swinging blindly at everything, throwing in red herrings, straw men, generalized insults and any other form of ridiculously unreasonable argument you can come up with, not because it gets you anywhere or fixes anything, but because the tantrum makes you feel better for a few minutes... until i post a response that still doesn't agree with your accusations.
so, like you said in this very post, if you want respect, you'll have to give it––and i don't even mean give respect to me or mormons, but at least to the generally agreed upon principles of having an intelligent debate! approach this from a rational perspective, and we can have a meaningful discussion about it. until you decide to do that, i'll just assume that you are content with the argument strategies of schoolyard bullies, politicians, and other lower life forms, and that you're just not bright enough to stand your ground, even if it is against this "not too bright twit," as you refer to me and the rest of my church.
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We asked politely and were reassured that such baptisms had stopped.
Mormons have freely ignored our wishes and openly lied to us.
who has lied to you? i don't recall the guilty individuals every promising you that they would stop. the church as a whole promised that it would change policy, and they have. so there is no lie there. would you actually like it if a church became so powerful that it could actually control and dominate the actions of its members? that idea scares me more than any rebellious members ever could.
the fact that you can't differentiate between a few individuals and an entire religion doesn't speak very highly about you.
be careful with that train of thought too. it is a slippery slope into the same mentality that has caused so many jews to suffer throughout the centuries.
generalizations based off of the actions of a few in order to back up your preexisting hatreds are never a good thing.
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That's very jerkish behavior.
i agree. luckily for you, most of us have respected that. those few that haven't don't speak for me. so you'd be wise to quit acting like they do.
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I'm sorry a great many Mormons are apparently incapable of being civilized human beings who show respect to people of other religions.
reread your post and see if you can understand the irony in your accusation of who is and is not incapable of being civilized.
you have no clue how many mormons have or haven't disrespected other people or their religions, for starters. and the ones that defy the rules in order to have the work done for a celebrity do not speak for me or the rest of us "not very bright twits."
you one of those militant zionists, by chance?
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At this point what I personally believe about Mormonism is that it is stupid cult filled with lying, arrogant, thoughtless, not very bright twits who are unable to adhere to reasonable and polite requests.
sounds pretty similar to what the neonazis think of the jews. that kind of hateful attitude has never gone well throughout history, as i'm sure you, as a jew, are aware.
that said, since you made the error of trying to talk about reason, and how bright some of us are, it is time to discuss your lack of reason and how bright you are. you still have failed to explain how a proxy baptism actually affects anyone.
don't worry. i'll wait. i'm stuck doing tedious animation homework right now while my kids play at the park with my wife, and i am always looking for a good distraction. remember, in order to actually move this discussion along in a resolvable direction, you'll have to start using facts and logic, instead of inflammatory lies, empty accusations and blatant hyperboles.
oh yeah, i've been forgetting to post my attitude during these posts for randomstudent's sake.
my tone and attitude during the writing of this post: sarcastic (as always), tempered with bouts of laughter, and admittedly, a little grudging respect for, and interest in further conversation with, dewdropinn.
you're welcome; one of the main reasons i did it was because it just seemed natural to repay some of what so many others have done before me.
if some mormon out there is his great grandkid or something, it is possible. but i don't know. whether he decides in the afterlife that Jesus is the one he wants to follow, or doesn't, i respect how he fought for his people.
you keep bringing that up as if it actually means something in this argument. no one is asking anyone to convert. no one is trying to convert your dead relatives.
and no one––at least, no mormons anyway––are threatening fines or execution of jews don't suddenly embrace the bible and the book of mormon.
have you heard of the following phrase? "your ladder is leaning up against the wrong wall." there are other variations, but the meaning is the same.
you can't have a reasonable discussion about this topic if you refuse to acknowledge certain facts. and by that, i don't mean that you simply have to agree with me. but as subjective as this topic is, there is a lot of objective foundation that you are currently dismissing, such as the fact that no one else but mormons are actually involved in any of this, and the fact that the baptism therefore doesn't actually affect anyone else.
after we define the objective facts, then you can proceed to bash away with your holy anger at the subjectives. but you just keep swinging blindly at everything, throwing in red herrings, straw men, generalized insults and any other form of ridiculously unreasonable argument you can come up with, not because it gets you anywhere or fixes anything, but because the tantrum makes you feel better for a few minutes... until i post a response that still doesn't agree with your accusations.
so, like you said in this very post, if you want respect, you'll have to give it––and i don't even mean give respect to me or mormons, but at least to the generally agreed upon principles of having an intelligent debate! approach this from a rational perspective, and we can have a meaningful discussion about it. until you decide to do that, i'll just assume that you are content with the argument strategies of schoolyard bullies, politicians, and other lower life forms, and that you're just not bright enough to stand your ground, even if it is against this "not too bright twit," as you refer to me and the rest of my church.
who has lied to you? i don't recall the guilty individuals every promising you that they would stop. the church as a whole promised that it would change policy, and they have. so there is no lie there. would you actually like it if a church became so powerful that it could actually control and dominate the actions of its members? that idea scares me more than any rebellious members ever could.
the fact that you can't differentiate between a few individuals and an entire religion doesn't speak very highly about you.
be careful with that train of thought too. it is a slippery slope into the same mentality that has caused so many jews to suffer throughout the centuries.
generalizations based off of the actions of a few are never a good thing.
i agree. luckily for you, most of us have respected that. those few that haven't don't speak for me. so you'd be wise to quit acting like they do.
reread your post and see if you can understand the irony in your accusation of who is and is not incapable of being civilized.
you have no clue how many mormons have or haven't disrespected other people or their religions, for starters. and the ones that defy the rules in order to have the work done for a celebrity do not speak for me or the rest of us "not very bright twits."
you one of those militant zionists, by chance?
sounds pretty similar to what the neonazis think of the jews. that kind of hateful attitude has never gone well throughout history, as i'm sure you, as a jew, are aware.
that said, since you made the error of trying to talk about reason, and how bright some of us are, it is time to discuss your lack of reason and how bright you are. you still have failed to explain how a proxy baptism actually affects anyone.
don't worry. i'll wait. i'm stuck doing tedious animation homework right now while my kids play at the park with my wife, and i am always looking for a good distraction. remember, in order to actually move this discussion along in a resolvable direction, you'll have to start using facts and logic, instead of inflammatory lies, empty accusations and blatant hyperboles.
oh yeah, i've been forgetting to post my attitude during these posts for randomperson's sake.
my tone and attitude during the writing of this post: sarcastic (as always), tempered with bouts of laughter, and admittedly, a little grudging respect for, and interest in further conversation with, dewdropinn.
It's called empathy...in this particular instance for a group of people that hold their religion and faith as dearly as Mormons claim to hold theirs. How many years did the Hebrews have to endure slavery and persecution and some of it coming from within the Catholic and Christian religions? Christ has nothing to do with Hebrew/Jewish ritiuals and out of respect, Mormons need to realize that. If you find the practice of baptism by proxy so innocuous, then that is reason enough to stop it! It makes a mockery and I do not think anyone of the Jewish faith would do the same to anyone of another religion.
No, she died of Typhoid. Typhoid affects everyone, not just Jews. When Anne Frank arrived at Auschwitz, there was a Typhoid epidemic and so she was sent to Bergen-Belsen, but to no avail as a Typhoid epidemic struck there too.
in all fairness though, she wouldn't have been doubly exposed, or exposed at all, if she weren't a victim of the concentration camps to begin with.
luckily, no mormons that i have ever met are trying to force jews into concentration camps. you're welcome.
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What I'm hearing is that Mormons can practice their religion only so long as it conforms to the beliefs of non-Mormons.
that is what i am hearing too. people will just roll their eyes if the beliefs are different. but if the beliefs are different, and alien or uncomfortable to their cultural upbringing, they will rant and rave. no one denomination or philosophy is responsible for this phenomenon either, it is just a part of the human condition that some people never become self-aware enough to notice.
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In numele Tatalui
Al Fiului
Si al Sfantului Duh
Doamne miluieste-ne pe noi. Doamne miluieste-ne pe noi. Doamne miluieste-ne pe noi.
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Congratulations. Everyone reading this thread is now a member of the Romanian Orthodox Church.
Voi vedea pe voi in Iad sau Paradis Felicitari...
Mircea
no! not again!
i'm just teasing. i've studied a lot of religions in my lifetime, but not yet the romanian orthodox church, so this is a new experience for me.
now i'm a gay romanian orthodox mormon, according to my real baptism (the one that actually affected me), and the gay mormon convert website, and mircea's post.
attitude: smiling. sarcastically smiling, but still smiling. random, i hope this helps.
[snip]in fact, i just stated the opposite, that i decided to come in here and at least point out the logical fallacies running rampant around here.
[snip]
Someone who believes in and defends baptism of the dead pointing out logical fallacies of others ?
empathy only goes so far before it becomes unreasonable. and when it tries to step into my house or my church or my temple and stomp on rites that don't affect anyone else, then it is unreasonable.
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in this particular instance for a group of people that hold their religion and faith as dearly as Mormons claim to hold theirs.
unrelated. so if we do proxy baptisms for faithful jews, it is bad, but for inactive catholics and humanist atheists, then it is ok?
stick to the topic.
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How many years did the Hebrews have to endure slavery and persecution and some of it coming from within the Catholic and Christian religions?
unrelated. i am not, and neither is my church, advocating slavery and persecution of anyone, including the jews.
stick to the topic.
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Christ has nothing to do with Hebrew/Jewish ritiuals and out of respect, Mormons need to realize that.
if i were trying to hold missionary discussions or pass the sacrament in their synagogues, you'd be right. since i am baptizing myself or another mormon in my own temple, you are wrong.
therefore, unrelated.
stick to the topic.
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If you find the practice of baptism by proxy so innocuous, then that is reason enough to stop it! It makes a mockery and I do not think anyone of the Jewish faith would do the same to anyone of another religion.
double non sequitur. i'm hoping all of these big words will encourage you to look these concepts up and apply them in the future to your arguments so that you don't waste so much of our time here.
stick to the topic.
what this boils down to is that you find something icky, but that other people from different perspectives don't find it icky. therefore you expect them to cave in and quit doing it so that you don't have to feel icky.
but again, since it is done away from any place you or any of the other ick-crowd frequent, and doesn't actually affect you, then i am pretty darn confident in the idea that the reasonable course would be for you to leave it alone.
i don't tell you how to conduct your worship, so long as you aren't sacrificing babies and enslaving jews, as you and eleanora1 keep bringing up. so i expect that what i do in the privacy of my own house of worship, so long as it does not violate any laws or human rights, and doesn't actually affect you in any way whatsoever, that you will leave me alone too.
capisci?
attitude: distracted by hunger; still sarcastic; incredulously wondering how many people go through life without spontaneously combusting when they can't seem to figure out a single illogical argument from the nose on their face. i mean, i know we all mess up sometimes, but to this level and consistency...?
Someone who believes in and defends baptism of the dead pointing out logical fallacies of others ?
i appreciated that and will rep you for it. as funny as the philosophy sounds, you will be hard pressed to find an actual fallacy in it. go ahead though, i'll wait.
also, it gets a little easier to imagine––if not more boring––once you realize that no one is dug up from a cemetery, and no dead bodies are actually baptized. it is just one mormon that has already been baptized for his or herself being baptized again, but in the name of someone else. that someone else can choose to accept it or leave it. that's the whole philosophy behind the "their choice" that i keep having to mention because so few people seem to be catching on.
legal disclaimers: going to cure that hunger right now, after i pee.
Now that I know you're here, stycotl, I can see us going round and round. When do we start discussing Indians, the LDS church and the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
Its called mutual respect. If you want people to have any respect for your religion it doesn't hurt to show respect for theirs.
Now you can do proxy baptisms to your hearts content. It's not illegal, but it is considered disrespectful by a lot of people as you can clearly see based on this thread. That is basically all I am going to say on this because arguing with some of the folks here is well, on par with every other experience as I have had with a Mormon missionary.
I never gave much thought to Mormonism and its possibility of being cult-like, but after some of the outlandish responses on this thread, I am now convinced that it reeks of cult aspects.
Same here.
I've never given much thought to Mormonism either, except that I've always been interested in their one-year prep policy because I tend to be a stock up kind of person myself. Nothing formal - I just like having a pantry full of canned foods (better yet if they're MY home-canned) and a freezer full of meats, etc.
Other than that, the LDS Church has always been a pretty benign presence in my life. I've had a few Mormon friends and acquaintances over the years, and other than an occasional invitation to go to church with them (politely declined, of course), and the occasional "visitor" at my door (not here - I have a gate across my driveway and behind the gate are some very vocal dogs and some guard chickens and attack ducks), they just have not been an issue one way or another for me and I have, in fact, defended them on occasion.
Not any more. This whole proxy baptism thing has shed a new light on this religion/cult for me and the attitude of stycotl and Katzpur that they can do whatever they want, regardless of the wishes of anyone else, that their way is RIGHT, has really opened my eyes. I just don't think I can ever see them as a harmless religion anymore.
It's creepy and it's offensive and it's arrogant and so are the posters who are defending it.
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