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Old 02-28-2012, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
5,502 posts, read 9,463,580 times
Reputation: 5606

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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
So to solve gov't subsidized urban sprawl, let's ask the gov't for more intervention. No, you have it all wrong. They want people out of the rural areas and into the cities - they will designate what areas humans can inhabit. Do not trust the gov't, this monster feeds itself off of your slave labor, and you are content with the crumbs. You have been brainwashed.
Educate yourself.
Agenda 21, ICLEI and the Tenth Amendment – Tenth Amendment Center Blog
Personally, I'd like to see a lot less government intervention. But people who live in sprawl would scream bloody murder if their roads started to deteriorate, if their post office closed, (etc.) or if their taxes went up to pay for these services they expect.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,105,746 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaw1981 View Post
Liberty- The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life.
You can have all of the Liberty you want, provided it doesn't infringe on my rights or cost me anything.

If I have a home in an historic district and you renovate your home to look like something a dog barfed up, and my property value declines because of it, then you have infringed upon my Liberties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaw1981 View Post
It is not up to you to decide rather I can handle owning my own house.
But it is up to me, because you are living in my community. If you don't like it then go start your own community or move to a community that has values similar to yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaw1981 View Post
...it is not up to anyone else either with regards to historic preservation.
Maybe there was some part of "Historic Preservation District" that you didn't understand. While you have your dicktionary out, you can look up the words "Historic," "Preservation" and "District."

Oppressing through Democracy...


Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
In other words, the right of the individual versus the collective - which is socialism!
Community. You know in Romania small towns are actually called "communes" from the Latin.

It's funny how people scream "Democracy!" until they don't like how the majority votes.

Socially...


Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsmoove View Post
So, if you accept the premise that zoning is beneficial for a variety of reasons, the question then becomes when does zoning get out of hand?
Finally. It takes a Big Brain to hit the nail on the head and define the crux of the matter. I drink to you.

Zoning...

Mircea
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,410 posts, read 36,915,433 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Same to you roy, welcome to this thread. People are so uninformed and compliant, we will all pay that price. We have a case locally where a landowner decided to build a chapel on his 2000 acres. The powers that be decided he didn't have the right permits. He is suing now. People that are willing to stand up for their rights need and deserve our support. They are us.
Which has nothing to do with the premise of the thread.
But hey, if he wants to build a substandard building that will fall down in a stiff breeze die to lack of inspection or code enforcement, thats his right.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 11,542,487 times
Reputation: 4262
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsmoove View Post
It doesn't matter if it's Europe or not... the point is that this is not some sort of unique feature of American democracy. It is a feature of all liberal democracies -- you do not have absolute dominion over your land; it's that simple. You never will. You may not like the HD thing but there are plenty of other restrictions on the use of your property -- this is just one that you don't like. It's fine if you don't like it but since you accept the premise that government can control your activities on your own land, then I don't quite understand your moral indignation here. If you don't like this particular restriction, there are ways in a democracy to go about changing them. Your freedom is still quite intact, regardless of how angry you want to be.
This is not a democracy, this is a republic that respects the rights of the individual, which is protected by the Constitution.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 11,542,487 times
Reputation: 4262
Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
Which has nothing to do with the premise of the thread.
But hey, if he wants to build a substandard building that will fall down in a stiff breeze die to lack of inspection or code enforcement, thats his right.
Yes maam, it is! It's none of your business.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:09 PM
 
155 posts, read 134,559 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsmoove View Post
It doesn't matter if it's Europe or not... the point is that this is not some sort of unique feature of American democracy. It is a feature of all liberal democracies -- you do not have absolute dominion over your land; it's that simple. You never will. You may not like the HD thing but there are plenty of other restrictions on the use of your property -- this is just one that you don't like. It's fine if you don't like it but since you accept the premise that government can control your activities on your own land, then I don't quite understand your moral indignation here. If you don't like this particular restriction, there are ways in a democracy to go about changing them. Your freedom is still quite intact, regardless of how angry you want to be.
I can actually agree with you...to a degree. Someone proposing a nuclear reactor in my backyard would be reason for my neighbors and myself to fight. Me putting up a 30 story building in the middle of a neighborhood would be another example. But that is not what we are talking about is it?

We are also not talking historic districts "here and there" or some historic preserved buildings and structures. We are talking about adding on many new layers of regulations to many many private property owners around the country..and in many cases outside Arizona without the owner's permission. We are talking about someone doing landscape and being told "no that is not what we like". Being told "no that is not the color we like". Being told "that cement on your driveway is not what we want". You can not see the difference?
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,410 posts, read 36,915,433 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaw1981 View Post
My point in bringing this up was to express my concern (and concerns of others as well) with:

A) too many historic districts as I stated "when everything is historic, nothing is historic and related to it the limiting it poses where people can buy who are in favor of freedom and liberty.

B) People not knowing what they are getting involved in like my aunt and uncle and so many others who I know that have lived in HDs.

C) To bring up of the great law in Arizona. Very few historic listings have been added after that law was put in place because permission has to be gained from the homeowner. That is a important word "homeowner" not "home renter" or some other term.

You have stated your dislike for HOAs. Let me give you a hypothetical question. I take it you currently do not live in a HD or a HOA. Your neighbors wish to form not a HD but a HOA to limit everything from paint color, when trash cans are in, trucks on the driveways...everything. You like your house, you have made it what you want but also have more work to do to it to make it what you wish. Should the option be left to you as to rather your property is part of this new HOA or should it be up to your neighbors?

You see what you stand for as a HD and what a HOA stands for are not all that different. You both stand for what you see as for the good of the community and are both willing to take away invdividual liberty and freedoms of people to do what you perceive to be in the best interest. Although the goals are different (one making the community uniform and the other preservation) the tactics and ways of going about it are the very same.

Do you put your house on the market or do you fight? Would that be right?
Been there, done that.
Moved to a farm (s) where I dont have to put up with that nonsense.
One of them is a centennial farm thats in my family, at that.
I am merely the steward.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:11 PM
 
155 posts, read 134,559 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
This is not a democracy, this is a republic that respects the rights of the individual, which is protected by the Constitution.


EXACLY!!!
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,410 posts, read 36,915,433 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
You can have all of the Liberty you want, provided it doesn't infringe on my rights or cost me anything.

If I have a home in an historic district and you renovate your home to look like something a dog barfed up, and my property value declines because of it, then you have infringed upon my Liberties.



But it is up to me, because you are living in my community. If you don't like it then go start your own community or move to a community that has values similar to yours.



Maybe there was some part of "Historic Preservation District" that you didn't understand. While you have your dicktionary out, you can look up the words "Historic," "Preservation" and "District."

Oppressing through Democracy...


Mircea



Community. You know in Romania small towns are actually called "communes" from the Latin.

It's funny how people scream "Democracy!" until they don't like how the majority votes.

Socially...


Mircea



Finally. It takes a Big Brain to hit the nail on the head and define the crux of the matter. I drink to you.

Zoning...

Mircea
Well said!
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 11,542,487 times
Reputation: 4262
Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
Been there, done that.
Moved to a farm (s) where I dont have to put up with that nonsense.
One of them is a centennial farm thats in my family, at that.
I am merely the steward.
Guard it well, people and places like yours are on their radar. You will be starting a thread like this in due time, arguing for your rights against tyranny.
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