Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
To be fair, being hired and favored in the workplace generally comes down to who brings the most value to the workplace. Ifminorities were widely known to bring the same or more value to the workplace (kind of like how Jews are generally viewed as highly valuable in the workplace), they'd be viewed the same way white employees are. Corporations care about one thing and one thing only and that's profit. If you can't help improve a company, you won't be hired or favored anywhere.
Key word here is "if". How do you get past the "if" if you aren't given the opportunity? Did you read a much earlier post of mine where I mention three black men and their achievements? All three worked in investment banking. Two I know well, and they are brilliant. They were recognized for their intelligence and the ability to make money (alot of it) for the firms they worked for, but they were also able to recognize that they were not "viewed" the same way as white employees.
Key word here is "if". How do you get past the "if" if you aren't given the opportunity? Did you read a much earlier post of mine where I mention three black men and their achievements? All three worked in investment banking. Two I know well, and they are brilliant. They were recognized for their intelligence and the ability to make money (alot of it) for the firms they worked for, but they were also able to recognize that they were not "viewed" the same way as white employees.
There are a number of reasons why a Black employee might be viewed differently. However, I'd rather not turn this into a 100 page book so I'll keep it brief.
I'm sure there's a reason why they weren't viewed the same as the white employees (who I assume also attended top schools). While race plays a role, you have to remember that corporate managers want to keep their high paying jobs and want their department to do extremely well; especially in investment banking because the year end bonuses are often larger than the salaries. Therefore, if these guys weren't being given opportunities, it's either because the manager already gave them opportunities and they didn't deliver and/or because the manager just felt others in their departments are were more talented. You have to remember that the manager more than likely knows of everyones qualifications (especially in investment banking where gpa is extremely important). If your friends graduated Harvard and Yale with 3.1 gpa's while nearly everyone else in the department graduated with a 3.5+, that right there will result the one's with the 3.5+ being favored and given more opportunities by their managers. What kind of gpa's did these guys have? Did they play sports at Harvard/Yale? Are they smart but shy types? Were they on the sales & trading side of banking, or the corporate finance/M&A side? All of these things make a difference when it comes to opporunities.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of Black people, even those in JD/MBA/MD programs, tend to self-segregate themselves. I graduated from grad school two years ago and whenever I'd go in the common area or hanging out in between classes, I'd always see all the Black people together. While that is perfectly fine, it often carries over into the workplace and results in Black employees falling behind socially which results in them feeling like outsiders and often limits their opportunities.
In conclusion, you just have to realize that corporations want the best and the brightest (who can ultimately increase their bottom line), and if they feel you aren't really the best and the brightest, you won't get as many opportunities. However, if they consider you the best and the brightest, you'll get opportunities (like one of my Black friends who made VP at a major Fortune 100 financial corporation in 6 years out of college). Perhaps your friend may want to take a good, hard look at themselves and figure out exactly why they aren't viewed the same way. Many Black people have gone on to be corporate leaders and do great things (even Herman Cain ended up becoming CEO of a large pizza chain lol) so there's nothing stopping your three friends from doing the same.
Last edited by midatlantic12; 03-03-2012 at 02:52 AM..
There are a number of reasons why a Black employee might be viewed differently. However, I'd rather not turn this into a 100 page book so I'll keep it brief.
I'm sure there's a reason why they weren't viewed the same as the white employees (who I assume also attended top schools). While race plays a role, you have to remember that corporate managers want to keep their high paying jobs and want their department to do extremely well; especially in investment banking because the year end bonuses are often larger than the salaries. Therefore, if these guys weren't being given opportunities, it's either because the manager already gave them opportunities and they didn't deliver and/or because the manager just felt others in their departments are were more talented. You have to remember that the manager more than likely knows of everyones qualifications (especially in investment banking where gpa is extremely important). If your friends graduated Harvard and Yale with 3.1 gpa's while nearly everyone else in the department graduated with a 3.5+, that right there will result the one's with the 3.5+ being favored and given more opportunities by their managers. What kind of gpa's did these guys have? Did they play sports at Harvard/Yale? Are they smart but shy types? Were they on the sales & trading side of banking, or the corporate finance/M&A side? All of these things make a difference when it comes to opporunities.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of Black people, even those in JD/MBA/MD programs, tend to self-segregate themselves. I graduated from grad school two years ago and whenever I'd go in the common area or hanging out in between classes, I'd always see all the Black people together. While that is perfectly fine, it often carries over into the workplace and results in Black employees falling behind socially which results in them feeling like outsiders and often limits their opportunities.
In conclusion, you just have to realize that corporations want the best and the brightest (who can ultimately increase their bottom line), and if they feel you aren't really the best and the brightest, you won't get as many opportunities. However, if they consider you the best and the brightest, you'll get opportunities (like one of my Black friends who made VP at a major Fortune 100 financial corporation in 6 years out of college). Perhaps your friend may want to take a good, hard look at themselves and figure out exactly why they aren't viewed the same way. Many Black people have gone on to be corporate leaders and do great things (even Herman Cain ended up becoming CEO of a large pizza chain lol) so there's nothing stopping your three friends from doing the same.
What does sports have to do with it? Did it ever occur to you that there is even marginal racism from white management? Or is the lack of successful blacks a result of low grades?? Are you really of the opinion that black people can't achieve 4.0 scores???
These guys were far from the shy type. To succeed to the levels they did you had to be a shark and aggressive - oh, and damn smart. One has his Masters, the other a PhD. Does that say anything for them?
I never said they didn't have the opportunities. I can't believe that you can't give the benefit of doubt as well as missing the point. These were not middle management who were passed over. They rose in leaps and bounds to the level of VP, SVP, so I guess they were considered to be among the best and the brightest. They were "stars" so they enjoyed all the benefits that their colleagues enjoyed. But their senses, and I won't question them, was that they weren't what one might call "part of the inner circle". At best, they had one foot in.
Since leaving the states, one became a Managing Director, and one worked in the same company as a VP. Today, all three have started their own, very successful, investment companies in the UAE.
As to self-segregating: you only noticed blacks congregating together? Can't the same be said for whites, asians, and so forth or were they all co-mingling?
It is your choice to decide what to think, and your responsibility to deal with the implications of that thinking. There is no "self-preservation" component preventing you from thinking critically and dealing with people on an individual basis. Nothing "forces" you to prejudice. And if one is going to use the antisocial behavior of a certain segment of one population to justify
Quote:
prejudging that entire population,
what is stopping him from applying that same principle to all populations, including his own? Bad behavior, after all, isn't exclusive to one group.
Sorry, but I think most people do this, including yourself.
What does sports have to do with it? Did it ever occur to you that there is even marginal racism from white management? Or is the lack of successful blacks a result of low grades?? Are you really of the opinion that black people can't achieve 4.0 scores???
These guys were far from the shy type. To succeed to the levels they did you had to be a shark and aggressive - oh, and damn smart. One has his Masters, the other a PhD. Does that say anything for them?
I never said they didn't have the opportunities. I can't believe that you can't give the benefit of doubt as well as missing the point. These were not middle management who were passed over. They rose in leaps and bounds to the level of VP, SVP, so I guess they were considered to be among the best and the brightest. They were "stars" so they enjoyed all the benefits that their colleagues enjoyed. But their senses, and I won't question them, was that they weren't what one might call "part of the inner circle". At best, they had one foot in.
Since leaving the states, one became a Managing Director, and one worked in the same company as a VP. Today, all three have started their own, very successful, investment companies in the UAE.
As to self-segregating: you only noticed blacks congregating together? Can't the same be said for whites, asians, and so forth or were they all co-mingling?
You never said they were VP/SVP level. Racism could very well be a reason, but at the same time it's very difficult to go beyond that level regardless of race. Most people never make it to senior management.
As far their gpa's go, I asked because I assumed your three friends were fresh college grads, not more senior employees, and I know how important gpa is to investment banks. You said they weren't getting opportunities and I was suggesting that may have been a reason why, hence the reason I asked.
However, in any event, it's nice to know they started their own businesses as more Black people need to create true wealth that lasts for generations instead of continuing to making other groups rich.
Last edited by midatlantic12; 03-03-2012 at 04:46 AM..
I understand where you are coming from and I do agree especially with the part where you mention taking out frustrations in your own, designated area especially where only certain people could live, which is what redlining caused in South and West Chicago and in many areas of Detroit.
But I feel that the way many black people treat white people better than black people is basically the same thing as what many white people do and why they see us as criminals. It is an internalized hatred and the feeling that black people don't deserve to be treated as well as white people. It is something that I feel is the biggest problem with black people in this country as a whole, especially in lower class neighborhoods as I see it more often with poorer black people. I admit though that the upper classes are the same. They want to use themselves as the positive token black and as proof that black people are just as good as white people. When they do it, it bothers me the most, hence my many debates and arguments about this with my college classmates, most of whom came from very well off families. Many of them were indoctrinated by their parents to believe that they would be "accepted" if they did the right things and many of them, mostly the males found out that they still faced prejudice and stereotyping no matter the positive things they did. Us black females get other stereotypes on us that aren't as negative as black men IMO (mostly that we all have attitudes and treat people nasty or are welfare mom's with a bunch of babies and want to live off the system). My husband is well educated, has a good position, is married and takes good care of our family but he has been accused of being a drug dealer, a thief, driving a stolen car, the list could go on and on. He has been arrested at least 8 times that I remember, two of which we took legal action against and all times we file reports against the arresting officers. These are just things that will happen to black men regardless of their education or position in life. They will continue to happen, maybe not as often as what goes on with my husband, and honestly I believe the dreadlocks he used to wear were the main reason why he was accused of so many crimes as now that he has cut them off he has only been accused of something (drug dealing, which we are considering filing a lawsuit for as well since he was taken to jail and searched without a warrant) once in the past 3 years that they have been cut, but it is something I must prepare my own son for and I don't want him to go out there thinking that just because he is smart and articulate and doesn't wear his pants around his thighs, that he will not be accused of something or even arrested because I am actually confident that it will happen. I just don't want him to do be bitter about it and not care anymore, which is what I hear from other young men and see happen in their lives. They feel if people think they are a criminal, they might as well be one.
Want to know where is your infatuation with the false idea that black people don't like Bill Cosby coming from?
I remember here in this very room there was a long thread about Tom Joyner, a black radio host and his political ideas (he likes Obama and thinks black people should vote for him because Obama is black). Tom Joyner frequently has Bill Cosby on his show. Tom LOVES Bill Cosby as do the majority of black people. I know I love and respect him. Bill came to Atlanta after his so-called controversial comments years ago (I think this was 5 or 6 years ago) and spoke at a high school in the neighborhood I lived in on parenting and responsibility in the black community and it was a sell out event. People were in the halls just to hear him and he got tons of approval and thunderous applause and I lived in a lower income neighborhood then so all this fallacy that black people don't like Bill Cosby or tried to "run him off" is VERY incorrect and if you want to know what black people think of Bill you should ask some random black folks their opinion of him and I bet you would be surprised.
Quote:
You are supposed to think "look at that underclass gheto acting black PERSON" Like I think when I see them or an underclass ghetto acting white person. I know more trailer trash sort of white people than middle or upper class whites, yet I don't view all white people to be the same as Bubba with his pig and filth and all those non-working, old junkyard cars in his yard white guy.
You're right, but how am I supposed to know the difference, since we are all programmed to notice difference. If I am walking past the projects and a black guy is approaching me, don't ya think I would get a bit defensive, I think it is human nature. As for white trailer trash, most don't have much dealings with them, since they are mostly located in rural areas away from populated areas. Not saying they aren't a problem.
No, but these people are located in rural areas and have no effect on us what so ever. Most of what they do is just stupid crap and doesn't involve criminal activity. I live and breath around black folk of all type, and I have to put up with (some not all) their ghetto behavior at the local convenience store, screaming yelling( can't talk without yelling) foul language, loud music. By the way,They are closing this store down for this very reason. BTW: the link you provided is about one specific family, The White's.
Let’s say that blacks in America did not like Jamaicans. Hence, let’s suppose there was a hypothetical situation in which blacks in America was were oppressing Jamaicans and giving them the worst jobs and denying them opportunities and the whole oppression thing. How long could that remain successful once the Jamaicans lost their accents, started inter-marrying with African Americans and or changed their names to something that did not sound Jamaican?
Nothing ensures the efficiency of oppression more than race because the key component of discrimination is accurate identification. It’s not that the Irish “manned up”, rather, the Irish “blended in” to “whiteness”. You see, there is a self-fulfilling prophecy aspect of stereotyping and discrimination. If people can identify you first, as part of a supposed inferior group, the will often treat you differently in such a way that creates a reaction that make the stereotype manifest as true. On the other hand, if one does not know from looking at someone that they are a member of a supposed inferior group, then they are not treated as inferior and hence they, not being set up to fail, are allowed to succeed and when it is later learned that they are a part of that supposed inferior group, their performance then breaks down the stereotype. If you cannot identify the out group with accuracy, you cannot oppress them for very long.
That having been said, I do remember that the IRA has been on what would be called a “terror campaign” against their oppressors. Is this how black America should “man up”? Also, the period after slavery where blacks were locked up and arrested to work on "chain" gangs was a very oppressive period as well. Blacks then were not Property, but rather, prisoners that could easily be worked to death and replaced with new black prisoners arrested on false or trumped up charges just to exploit their labor. There was a thread posted on this not too long ago. People have this misconception that black oppression was JUST slavery. There was 100 years of legal oppression that followed that.
I agree with you that there was oppression for some time after slavery was outlawed, but it would benefit the blacks in this country to quit playing the victim card and get on with improving things in your own communities.
Total BS and you know it. Some rush baby would have reported this so fast. No one wants someone incompetent in a position like this. More than likely the person telling you this is a jerk who got passed over.
You can make any excuse you want, but I was told by a manager of were I used to work, that he was required to have 3 times ''more suff" on the black person so they did not have any chance at a dicrimination charge/suit. Take it for what it is worth.
You said they weren't getting opportunities and I was suggesting that may have been a reason why, hence the reason I asked.
However, in any event, it's nice to know they started their own businesses as more Black people need to create true wealth that lasts for generations instead of continuing to making other groups rich.
*sigh* Again, I never said they weren't getting "opportunities". I asked what if you weren't given the opportunity. Please don't tell me that black people have the same leverage as whites when it comes to opportunities in the corporate world.
Yeah, they started their own businesses - unfortunately outside of the US!!! And in all probability they will return to the US one day and live a comfortable retirement.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
BTW: the link you provided is about one specific family, The White's.
