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I don't recall anyone saying that "all muslims---as a whole---agree uniformly" about anything, and your statement is fallacious and unfair. What I DO recall, though, is many people, including me, who have said, and continue to say that, "Only a percentage of Muslims, apparently, agree with the murderous violent tactics and hateful messages of the terrorists. The Muslim population as a whole, however, has done an exceedingly poor job of disassociating themselves from these wackos, to the point that many of us "outsiders" find it easy to conclude that their silence in the matter indicates their support for terrorism. In addition", we go on to say, "many polls both here, in Europe, and in the Middle East, do indicate substantial support for 'suicide bombers'; and this makes it very difficult for us 'infidels' to take seriously the assertation that Islam is really just a 'Religion of Peace' . And by the way, 'Infidel' isn't a very friendly word; and in OUR western culture, a 'Martyr' is someone who is killed, against his will, for refusing to renounce his faith, NOT a suicidal murderer willing to blow up innocent passers-by. So perhaps there's a bit of a problem in communication here".....
THAT is the message I've been getting......Sorry if you see things differently.
The solution to the Islamic problem, get rid of Satanic Muslims.
Brutal but true.
So you're assuming that Muslims as a whole group of people agree uniformly with Osama Bin Laden, with no brains or thoughts of their own? Do all Christians agree with Pat Robertson?
Good point fishmonger, Muslims as a whole group may not agree with OBL. Christians as a whole group may not agree with Pat Robertson.
Both 'whole groups' make no attempt to dispel the notion that the radicals of their respective groups are the leaders of the pack. They make no attempt to suppress those radicals.
There is much consternation that right wing christians run the government, or the chimp meister, anyway. So, are you okay with the silence on the radical Muslims?
Good point fishmonger, Muslims as a whole group may not agree with OBL. Christians as a whole group may not agree with Pat Robertson.
Both 'whole groups' make no attempt to dispel the notion that the radicals of their respective groups are the leaders of the pack. They make no attempt to suppress those radicals.
There is much consternation that right wing christians run the government, or the chimp meister, anyway. So, are you okay with the silence on the radical Muslims?
I read a lot about the silence of the Muslims. From my understanding most or all of the mainstream Muslim organizations have long ago come out denouncing this radical brand of Islam. A colleague from England told me the most recent Muslim bombing plot in England was foiled because fellow Muslims in their community found out about it and then turned the suspects over to English authorities.
So, what do people expect or want? Mass protests in the streets? I am curious about this.
Good point fishmonger, Muslims as a whole group may not agree with OBL. Christians as a whole group may not agree with Pat Robertson.
Both 'whole groups' make no attempt to dispel the notion that the radicals of their respective groups are the leaders of the pack. They make no attempt to suppress those radicals.
There is much consternation that right wing christians run the government, or the chimp meister, anyway. So, are you okay with the silence on the radical Muslims?
Willys, I don't mean to pick on you--but you've hit a favorite "nerve" with me. And that is, our modern politically-correct inability to differentiate between degrees of good and evil---or between degrees of harm.
Comparing Pat Robertson with bin Ladin is just ludicrous, tempting though such a comparison may seem. Robertson may well be a smirking, smug, throughly obnoxious fellow who "looks down his nose" at most of us, and passes judgement on the world. He does NOT, however, represent anything remotely of the caliber of Osama bin Ladin.
Robertson may be a "clown"---but neither he, nor the most "oafish" of his followers, would ever advocate suicide bombings of innocents. I'm sure Robertson would be thoroughly aghast if one of his disciples volunteered to "blow up" a madrassa (and himself along with it) or a Muslim-run day care center, in order to demonstrate to the world the "power of Christ". That sort of comparison is just plain ridiculous.
Pat Robertson is silly and misguided in many ways---intellectually, he leaves much to be desired. Nevertheless, he is NOT Osama bin Ladin.
George Bush may be a disappointment as President, and even a "scary guy", but he's a long way from being a Hitler or a Stalin. Then US may have certain problems with the way it treats its POW's---but it sure beats the hell out of the way Saddam treated HIS prisoners, and comparing the two is just not fair or logical. The US may also fall short of the ideal when it comes to how we accomodate the poor Mexicans who show up here---it's true that in many ways we could be a lot "nicer" to them. But no matter how we treat them, it sure as hell must be better than the way Mexico treated them, or they wouldn't be here at all. No one ever seems to mention this inconvenient little paradox.
If the US were half as "evil" as bin Ladin seems to think it is (and many Americans seem to agree), we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because "we" would long ago have simply "nuked" Baghdad, or Riyadh, or Mecca clear out of existence. We may be big, stumbling, poorly-focused "clods", but we Americans hardly approach the murderous, hateful level of bin Ladin's attitude toward "us", and I resent the blanket comparisons. Hopefully those who make these silly statements will never have to be put to the "test".
Isn't it possible that maybe some of these comparisons are really just a "cheap-shot" way of making a point?---I really think so.
Mac can I just insert a quick point? Even with my contempt for Bush I agree it is probably not fair to equate him personally with a Bin Laden. But this is all from our Western, "civilized" perspective.
On the other hand....I do think we all definitely look at the whole far off Middle East conflict through our rose colored lenses, and hey there may be some collateral damage occuring over there but our hearts are pure and if those silly Muslims would just get with the program they will see how good we are really making things for them.
How many innocent civilians have died in this conflict? Tens of thousands of innocent deaths is the conservative estimate. Some say hundreds of thousands. A lot more than the deaths suffered on 9/11. And our troops have been surveyed - with the result that most say they consider any civilian a combatant. If a fellow troop killed an innocent Iraqi... they say they would not report it. We know of some rapes and murders by our troops. Probably a bunch more we do not know about. I don't judge the troops, I judge the situation they were put in. How many were killed in our Shock and Awe days? And all those killed by other Iraqis...well, they would probabvly still be alive if the evil Saddam were still around. Infant mortality in Iraq is through the roof. Half the doctors and nurses have run away.
So from their perspective, maybe Bush is more than just a clown playing the leader of the free world - maybe he does represent Evil in their minds. Makes sense to me.
Mac can I just insert a quick point? Even with my contempt for Bush I agree it is probably not fair to equate him personally with a Bin Laden. But this is all from our Western, "civilized" perspective.
On the other hand....I do think we all definitely look at the whole far off Middle East conflict through our rose colored lenses, and hey there may be some collateral damage occuring over there but our hearts are pure and if those silly Muslims would just get with the program they will see how good we are really making things for them.
How many innocent civilians have died in this conflict? Tens of thousands of innocent deaths is the conservative estimate. Some say hundreds of thousands. A lot more than the deaths suffered on 9/11. And our troops have been surveyed - with the result that most say they consider any civilian a combatant. If a fellow troop killed an innocent Iraqi... they say they would not report it. We know of some rapes and murders by our troops. Probably a bunch more we do not know about. I don't judge the troops, I judge the situation they were put in. How many were killed in our Shock and Awe days? And all those killed by other Iraqis...well, they would probabvly still be alive if the evil Saddam were still around. Infant mortality in Iraq is through the roof. Half the doctors and nurses have run away.
So from their perspective, maybe Bush is more than just a clown playing the leader of the free world - maybe he does represent Evil in their minds. Makes sense to me.
Yes, Bush is evil to just about everyone around the world. He defines the U.S. and I'm afraid he and Bin Laden are polarizing the rest of the world against us! Can't everyone see how Bin Laden is using these video rants to further his cause? When will we lose some of the moderate states in the region to Bin Laden? The ideology of religion is too strong of a force for people in that region to believe America is the good guy anymore?
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