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Old 03-13-2012, 11:59 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,081,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
I'm hoping I understood your point. The point I was trying to make is that I identify less with a gender identity than most people and just see myself as a human being.

I guess in a way that makes me gender-conscious. Because I'm "hard to peg", I always notice when people use gendered language and which gender they pick with me, especially when two or more people in the same conversation don't agree on the same pronoun in reference to me (which has happened before).
Yes, you understood...I guess it's a fine line. Some people seemed threatened, that I was questioning that they should even think of themselves as a man or woman, but it's not about that but about ALWAYS thinking of yourself as one, or doing it a lot, even when not necessary.

 
Old 03-14-2012, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Toronto
3,295 posts, read 7,019,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Yes, you understood...I guess it's a fine line. Some people seemed threatened, that I was questioning that they should even think of themselves as a man or woman, but it's not about that but about ALWAYS thinking of yourself as one, or doing it a lot, even when not necessary.
I figured you meant conscious as in awareness of standing out, especially when it comes to stereotypes or norms and breaking them. For instance, if you are walking around in your home city, you're not conscious of being an Australian or an American or a Canadian etc. but if you are a foreigner in a country you're visiting, you can become conscious of it and aware of how others see you as a representative of your nation (including stereotypes and norms). That's the example given by the female engineer in a group of males etc., or say someone acting non-gender-typical in a group of people acting gender-typical.

Most people are conscious of things when they stick out. For instance, when you walk down the street or go to the store to buy groceries, or go to the bank, I bet most people don't think about their sex or gender unless something triggers it (such as say, someone flirting with you or freaking you out by staring at you and even then, I don't know if that'll make you conscious of gender so much as being conscious of trying to either avoid or draw attention to yourself as an individual to that other person).

Another sense people are using it or interpreting it seems to be about being proud of it -- "girl power!" etc., proud to be a "man" etc. I don't understand that myself (but I am a kind of person that doesn't get a lot of "social group pride" etc. in general) but I tend to not find pride in things that are accidents of birth or genetics rather than actual accomplishments or achievements (and even so, I don't tend to feel "proud" but more so happy etc. -- sometimes I do wonder if I'm the odd one out (but like I'd be one to care anyway ), since some kinds of "pride" others feel seem alien to me).
 
Old 03-14-2012, 12:29 AM
 
Location: California
37,138 posts, read 42,234,436 times
Reputation: 35020
Female here. I totally identify more with other females more than males, who have always been kind of a mystery to me. I've had guy friends, a husband, father, brother and son but I'd still feel more comfortable in a room full of women rather than in a room full of men. I also pay attention to how men talk to women and just today had an older man tell me that the quote I got from a fencing company was probably a rip off since "they take advantage of women who don't know any better". True or not it's something I have to hear about all the time.
 
Old 03-14-2012, 06:42 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,081,790 times
Reputation: 11862
Why was this moved to Politics and other Controversies? What has this got to do with politics?
 
Old 03-14-2012, 07:42 AM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,466,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumbler. View Post
I figured you meant conscious as in awareness of standing out, especially when it comes to stereotypes or norms and breaking them. For instance, if you are walking around in your home city, you're not conscious of being an Australian or an American or a Canadian etc. but if you are a foreigner in a country you're visiting, you can become conscious of it and aware of how others see you as a representative of your nation (including stereotypes and norms). That's the example given by the female engineer in a group of males etc., or say someone acting non-gender-typical in a group of people acting gender-typical.

Most people are conscious of things when they stick out. For instance, when you walk down the street or go to the store to buy groceries, or go to the bank, I bet most people don't think about their sex or gender unless something triggers it (such as say, someone flirting with you or freaking you out by staring at you and even then, I don't know if that'll make you conscious of gender so much as being conscious of trying to either avoid or draw attention to yourself as an individual to that other person).

Another sense people are using it or interpreting it seems to be about being proud of it -- "girl power!" etc., proud to be a "man" etc. I don't understand that myself (but I am a kind of person that doesn't get a lot of "social group pride" etc. in general) but I tend to not find pride in things that are accidents of birth or genetics rather than actual accomplishments or achievements (and even so, I don't tend to feel "proud" but more so happy etc. -- sometimes I do wonder if I'm the odd one out (but like I'd be one to care anyway ), since some kinds of "pride" others feel seem alien to me).
Great analogy. Most White people aren't conscious of their Whiteness until they're in a predominantly non-White neighborhood. Most people aren't conscious of their sightedness until they meet a blind person. And so on and so forth. A lot of it is relative, but sometimes people do identify so strongly with a certain characteristic that they feel that way all the time.

I know some women whose womanhood only comes to the forefront if they are questioned or given a hard time about how they express their womanhood. I know other women who constantly worry themselves with what society perceives as distinctly female troubles.

For example, I am willing to bet the Mary Kay makeup specialist I met the other day is much more conscious of her gender than my sister-in-law, with having to worry about looking good for her job and also making other women look good. She is open to working with men but at the same time, society in general pretty much expects a makeup artist to "look girly" and even with men, the kind of "makeup" she puts on them is completely different and aimed at making it look like he doesn't have any on. In a way, she is still distinguishing between men and women, most likely because it's expected, and therefore is very gender-conscious.

On the other hand, my sister-in-law never cared about coming off as male or female but has had to spend her life explaining to people that she's heterosexual precisely because she happily does things that society perceives as "masculine" alongside doing things that society perceives as "feminine". Her homophobic family was afraid she would turn out to be a lesbian until she married my brother--but that worry was based on her gender. She doesn't go out of her way to act feminine, which they perceived as being gay.

I thin it's a great question to ask, OP, cause I don't think many people realize that not all people feel the same way about their gender. A lot of people think that the way they feel about their gender, most others probably do too. But some social circles emphasize gender roles more than others, and likewise, some individuals are more attached to their manhood or womanhood, than others.

Gender is so ingrained in our society, though, that it even affects the way we speak. As someone who can present either way, I can easily tip people to one side just by changing my word choice. Same outfit, same situation, all other factors equal--just a slight shift in the way I speak is enough to change the way people perceive my gender. This is based on numerous studies linguists have done that observe how men and women speak differently. One particularly famous linguist who has studied language and gender is Deborah Tannen.

I'm not even talking about words like "he" and "she", but more subtle cues, such as how someone phrases something--in how many words, with how many qualifiers, and so on. Women are more likely to add qualifiers like "In my opinion, it's not safe" or question tags "you don't want to go, do you?" and politeness markers like "Would you mind taking out the trash" Women tend to use more words to express the same sentiment compared to men. These rules aren't set in stone, and there are plenty of other factors involved as well, not to mention plenty of variation from one speaker to the next. That said, there are linguistic trends correlated to gender that linguists have noticed. They happen often enough that you can take advantage of these trends to make your speech come off as more masculine or feminine.
 
Old 03-14-2012, 08:25 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,081,790 times
Reputation: 11862
^

Then I should probably be wondering where my vagina went, because that's how I sometimes talk, lol just joking. Always as if it's a great favour I'm asking, even if say someone is blocking my way and I ought to give it to them straight.

But you make a great point about your environment, job, expectations and what you have to think about day to day. I think a male makeup artist, for instance, working in a predominantly female environment, will likely begin to start to relate to women more, even though he is not biological not one, so he becomes more female-gendered in his outlook. And like you say, anyone who is confronted with the differences between sexes day after day may come to think of them as second nature.

It's often falsely thought that Feminists wanted women to act just like men, or be like men. I don't think that's the case, although what I notice is a celebration of womanhood like never before. Despite the equality, I don't think society is any less gender conscious than in days gone by. It's not necessarily a bad thing, until these stereotypes begin to pervade the lives of individuals. Personally I would like to see society that is more race-blind: a society that accepts the fundamental differences, while not putting unnecessary emphasis on them.
 
Old 03-14-2012, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 59,805,597 times
Reputation: 24863
I am aware I am male (stupid statement) and I am also aware of women (also stupid statement) because I am still alive.

Politically and economically I support equal opportunity and maximization of individual freedom regardless of sex. Why would I want to be any other way?
 
Old 03-14-2012, 08:33 AM
 
1,228 posts, read 1,929,734 times
Reputation: 589
i dress and act like a women
 
Old 03-14-2012, 08:35 AM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,466,883 times
Reputation: 12597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
^

Then I should probably be wondering where my vagina went, because that's how I sometimes talk, lol just joking. Always as if it's a great favour I'm asking, even if say someone is blocking my way and I ought to give it to them straight.

But you make a great point about your environment, job, expectations and what you have to think about day to day. I think a male makeup artist, for instance, working in a predominantly female environment, will likely begin to start to relate to women more, even though he is not biological not one, so he becomes more female-gendered in his outlook. And like you say, anyone who is confronted with the differences between sexes day after day may come to think of them as second nature.

It's often falsely thought that Feminists wanted women to act just like men, or be like men. I don't think that's the case, although what I notice is a celebration of womanhood like never before. Despite the equality, I don't think society is any less gender conscious than in days gone by. It's not necessarily a bad thing, until these stereotypes begin to pervade the lives of individuals. Personally I would like to see society that is more race-blind: a society that accepts the fundamental differences, while not putting unnecessary emphasis on them.
I'd like to see a society that lets you be whatever gender you want to be. If that's ultra-feminine and you have a vagina, great. If that's androgynous or masculine or even ultra-masculine and you have a vagina, great. Etc. Society today still does a lot of "gender policing" and I'd like to see that diminish overtime. Some women want to be girly and some men want to be guyish and that's all well and good, but I do think there needs to be more acceptance for women that want to be guyish and men that want to be girly and people that just want to be both or either or don't want to think in terms of whether how they're being is girly/guyish.

I'd love to see a society that is more race-blind too. I'd love to see a society that is disability-blind. It would be great if people could just look at me and see a person, and not "a blind person." I identify so strongly with my blindness mainly because so many other people can't see past it (lol no pun intended) so I am constantly reminded of it. Barely an hour goes by without someone reminding me that I'm blind in a sighted world.

I'd just like to see people seeing others for themselves, and not their skin color or sex or gender beyond what the person themselves expresses or projects. If someone acts very girly, for instance, because they want people to see them that way, and that's just who they are that's one thing. But I'd like to see the ideas and expectations like "you're a woman, act girly" go away. I'd like to see people treat someone girly cause that that person identifies as girly, not because she has a vagina. Same goes for guys of course.

It should be up to individuals to choose and express their gender identity, not up to other people to police them into a specific gender role based on their genitalia. Same goes for cultural identity based on skin color.
 
Old 03-14-2012, 08:42 AM
 
21,026 posts, read 22,158,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aganusn View Post
I'll assume you're referring to something like boys playing with pink toys and not equal pay for women? Unless you're ok with being relegated to an intellectually stifled housewife just because a man tells you to.

A part of working towards a more egalitarian society is acknowledging that people are humans first and not canvases for makeup or power tools.

You can be ok with being a "woman", but there are over 7 billion people, all with their own definitions of what a woman should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterclinger View Post
I identify myself as a woman/girl/lady all the time. Why? Because I absolutely LOVE being femaie.
Please read the post above yours.


"bitterclinger" (??) errr....

Why do you have to "identify" yourself as female?

Can't you just be you, just live???
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