Pakistani youth on America - 'They talk about democracy and then support dictators'

[Yeledaf]

Originally Posted by pdxtech

Sorry to disappoint you, but Pakistan does not stand for "land of peace" as
you would like to believe. "Pak" means pure and stan=land as you correctly
mentioned. Pakistan stands for "land of the pure", where pure = islam.

Here is a reference:
Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When the British left, they divided the colony of India, into India and
Pakistan since the muslims wanted their own country. Hence, the land
of the pure. The Indians chose to have a secular system of government
(like the US model) and have an official separation of religion and state
like us. The pakistanis chose to be an Islamic republic, driving out their
minorities such as Hindus, Sikhs and Christians who fled to India and
have generally prospered there.

But to add to the original post, isn't it ironic that historically, we have
taken sides with the Pakistanis (either under Islamic rule or military rule
throughout their history), against Indians, who have been a secular
democratic republic, with a system of government based on the US
and British constitutions? Not only do we seem to encourage dictators
in societies where the concept of democracy is "foreign", we
also seem to discourage countries that have more in common with us.

I don't think that it is quite accurate to say that the US has "taken sides with Pakistan against India". Actually, relations between India and the US are quite close, owing to the commitment to active democracy which both nations share. India is a bulwark agasint China, also, and will soon outstrip its northern neighbor in population.

[macmeal]

[quote=bily4;1481533]Macmeal, here is the thing. I don't see myself as having an anti-Western bias. I am a fellow vet and am proud of my service. But you have to separate government policy, radical movements, and societies at large - in any country. As some posters point out and with legitimate reason - foreign policy is by nature a dirty business. We normal guys don't even want to know all the stuff that goes on to protect America's interests around the world. Fair enough. But then we can't turn around and state that Iran and all Iranians are evil... because of their President and his cadre at the top. We can't turn around and say all Pakistanis are Evil... because they have an armed and radical element within their borders.

But what I ask you to consider is that there are plenty of westerners (actually a much larger percentage, I think) who have no ill-will against muslims, either---who DON'T want to desecrate muslim lands---who wouldn't hurt a muslim for any reason---and who probably have never even MET a muslim....and I don't believe we can blame THESE folks, either, for the damage caused by the "hawks" in their own (our) society.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. But macmeal you do seem to be more willing to cast all Muslims in a light that they are actively or passively supporting terrorism, just by the fact they are Muslims. I am aware it is a brutal and backwards religion in some respects to our Western eyes. I do not however buy that a legitimate jump in logic can then be made - to say that by the fact that a person is Muslim they must by definition then support terrorist actions.

Can we be blamed for Bush? Well, we do have more power to change things in our society than the average Joe Iraqi or Fred Pakistani does to change things in his. We did reelect Bush. Can we "blame" the average Muslim in the street for saying - I never met any of those guys that took down the two towers. I never even met an American before. Why is their army in my backyard and why has my country been torn apart? Or why because there are some freaks up in our mountains is everyone in my country being branded as terrorists?

I agree with you--your post is thoughtful and beyond reproach. My only problem, as I've tried to emphasize, is that comparing the two cultures on a point-by-point basis just isn't possible. At some point, you just have to concede that there is a "backwardness" (and I know that's an insensitive term) that makes the "enemies of Islam" (and that is ANY non-muslim, in the Middle East, or elsewhere, who has a "beef" with any muslim)- guilty of attacking or insulting Islam, and the local populace either CAN not, or WILL not, disavow the "radicals". The Danish cartoon debacle is a case in point.

Your moderate words are not an issue--of course you're right. But in the end, whether muslims are "bad", and "hate the west", or whether they are coerced into ACTING as though they "hate the west", what is the "man in the street" here supposed to make of it?

I don't see any simple way of resolving this issue, but I don't think any "appeasement" on our part will help. There's got to be a better, longer-lasting resolution to this. And I don't think the recent large immigration into Europe is going to "solve" the misunderstandings---it will eventually only result in making the whole thing a moot point. I'm not at all convinced that Islam, by its very nature and its creed and value system, is capable of co-existing with ANY other group, western or otherwise. I know that's not considered an "enlightened" view, but I see nothing so far to contradict it. An observant muslim, it seems to me, has only two alternatives---(1) Go against, fight, call for the destruction of, and work in opposition to ANY non-muslim culture, or...(2) Simply "water down" a part of his religion and adopt a more secular outlook (and invite the contempt of fellow muslims in the process).

I don't claim to have a solution. Thanks for listening....

[pdxtech]

Originally Posted by Yeledaf

I don't think that it is quite accurate to say that the US has "taken sides with Pakistan against India". Actually, relations between India and the US are quite close, owing to the commitment to active democracy which both nations share. India is a bulwark agasint China, also, and will soon outstrip its northern neighbor in population.

You are right, I should have clarified that historically, the US took sides
with the Pakistanis because the Indians were close to the Russians, but
things have changed considerably in the recent past.

One aspect of working with another democracy such as India is that, their
government is elected and has to respect their people's wishes. So,
if the people don't want to support the Iraq war (for example), the
government cannot commit easily to supporting us with troops etc.
The same goes for Britain, Australia etc, where there is a popular anti-war
movement and their prime-ministers have a hard time backing us up.
In a dictatorship, it is easier to have them "tow our line", it is better
if the dictator is corrupt, because for him, self preservation can be more
important than popular sentiments.

[rd2007]

ok, seems Musharraf maybe also didn't know the origin of the name of his country because that's where I got peace land from, although the words peace and pure are very similar..
However, while researching this further I did find the Urdu translation of pak is pure, holy, immaculate, chaste, or undefiled, but I also found this interesting piece:
Many central and south Asian states and regions end with the element -stan, such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Baluchistan, Kurdistan, and Turkistan. This -stan is formed from the Iranian root *st-, "to stand, stay," and means "place (where one stays), home, country." Iranian peoples have been the principal inhabitants of the geographical region occupied by these states for over a thousand years. The names are compounds of -stan and the name of the people living there. Pakistan is a bit of an exception; its name was coined in 1933 using the suffix -istan from Baluchistan preceded by the initial letters of Punjab, Afghanistan, and Kashmir. This also seems entirely possible as paki seems to be a bad term in some places and that would make paki+stan probably not something you'd want to say in certain areas.
Guess it'll be one of those things that probably nobody quite knows the answer to..

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