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Old 09-15-2007, 12:21 PM
 
8,974 posts, read 15,680,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willys View Post
Al-Qaida: Bounty on Swedish cartoonist (broken link)



I hope someone will point that out when it happens.
Hmmmmm- this post seems to run counter to some of the information I've been getting on this forum from Sweden recently--Care to enlighten me, anyone? Just what IS the situation between the "natives" and the Muslims in Sweden?
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Old 09-15-2007, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Wiesbaden, Germany
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Same as it is in most western European countries.. uncontrolled immigration leading towards a downfall of the civilization.. or doing the french thing and throwing them in a slum while pretending they don't exist.. until they riot and burn down large chunks of cities for weeks on end..
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Old 09-16-2007, 11:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Admittedly I might have gone a tiny bit "over the line" (but just a TINY bit)---I believe Malaysia, as well, does have a fair amount of religious tolerance. Still, I stand by what I said---in Iran, a nation of 70 million people, an unassimilated group of 80,000 is hardly a number to "brag about" as an example of "tolerance". Undoubtedly there are a few KKK members who have secretly entered into interracial marriages---yet I don't think anyone would seriously hold up the "klan" as an example of tolerance. And certainly there is no example anywhere in Islam even faintly approaching the level of tolerance found in even the most mediocre "western" naton.
Macmeal, no, I would not brag either, but I also would not say that none existed. Truth be known, I completely agree with how you stated that, "western" nations being more tolerant but I also suspect this is going to change in time as western nations head towards the ultimate collision of belief systems.

Just prior to 9-11 I was working on a comparative study on how the Middle Eastern monotheistic religions effect politics and culture in the beginning of the 21st century. I was halfway through the Kodaschim when the towers fall and I soon after picked up the Qur'an. To be frank, I never found the boogyman of hate that many described, in fact I found many of the same themes running through the Torah-Talmud, the New Testament and the Qur'an.

The reason I think that Islam is not as tolerant as Christianity as they have a much stricter adherence to the text of their religious faith than do Christians. Christians are far more liberal in their interpretations of the body of their religious texts, after all, how many Christians make their women cover their heads in church or women that wear jewelry and braid their hair?

Being that many Islamic countries so strictly adhere to their religious texts, and being that even in moderate Islamic states, religion supersedes politics and often passes for both. This attachment to fundamentalism keeps their culture between the two covers of the Qur'an and does not allow it to progress in the manner in which western cultures do.

I do see America and some other western nations moving towards a more fundamentalist interpretation of their own respected religious texts. The more threatened religious beliefs become, the louder their more extremist aspects begin to show. Dollars for donuts, I would bet that there are a few that post on this board that would gladly squeeze the trigger to end the threat of those dune coons-camel jockey's in the name of Jesus.
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Old 09-16-2007, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
The reason I think that Islam is not as tolerant as Christianity as they have a much stricter adherence to the text of their religious faith than do Christians.
And they have no history of reformation. Christianity went through a fairly dark era, centuries of extreme brutality against all who would dare to contradict anything approved by the Church. Islam needs a Martin Luther.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
I do see America and some other western nations moving towards a more fundamentalist interpretation of their own respected religious texts. The more threatened religious beliefs become, the louder their more extremist aspects begin to show.
I know why you're saying this -- it does *look* like America is in danger of being over-run by religious fanatics. But voting records show otherwise. Americans are surprisingly moderate and diverse in their views compared to most other nations and compared to the stereotype of the typical American as portrayed in the international press. Yeah, we have a lower level of education and more outspoken Christian fanatics, but their numbers are far from a majority. If there's a national religion of the USA, it's Materialistic Consumerism, not Christianity.
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Old 09-16-2007, 11:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TheHarvester View Post
I know why you're saying this -- it does *look* like America is in danger of being over-run by religious fanatics. But voting records show otherwise. Americans are surprisingly moderate and diverse in their views compared to most other nations and compared to the stereotype of the typical American as portrayed in the international press. Yeah, we have a lower level of education and more outspoken Christian fanatics, but their numbers are far from a majority. If there's a national religion of the USA, it's Materialistic Consumerism, not Christianity.
Oh I don't think the United States has reached any level of fanatical fundamentalism that our eastern counterparts have by a long shot. There need not be a majority though is proven by the fact that the majority of America wants out of Iraq, but a minority of people either vote to keep them there or continue to fund it.

The sentiments do however exist in very tangible numbers and all it would take is another terrorist act in America and fundamentalist America will rise to unimaginable numbers.

Keep in mind, all it takes is for Fox, CNN, and the rest to run catchy lil phrases, glittery graphics and the pin heads driven by emotion, devoid of reason will do just as they are commanded, errrr guided.

excellent point about the reformation Harvester, which is one reasons I think western nations live beyond the covers of their religious texts instead of being confined by them.
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Old 09-16-2007, 11:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Macmeal, no, I would not brag either, but I also would not say that none existed. Truth be known, I completely agree with how you stated that, "western" nations being more tolerant but I also suspect this is going to change in time as western nations head towards the ultimate collision of belief systems.

Just prior to 9-11 I was working on a comparative study on how the Middle Eastern monotheistic religions effect politics and culture in the beginning of the 21st century. I was halfway through the Kodaschim when the towers fall and I soon after picked up the Qur'an. To be frank, I never found the boogyman of hate that many described, in fact I found many of the same themes running through the Torah-Talmud, the New Testament and the Qur'an.

The reason I think that Islam is not as tolerant as Christianity as they have a much stricter adherence to the text of their religious faith than do Christians. Christians are far more liberal in their interpretations of the body of their religious texts, after all, how many Christians make their women cover their heads in church or women that wear jewelry and braid their hair?

Being that many Islamic countries so strictly adhere to their religious texts, and being that even in moderate Islamic states, religion supersedes politics and often passes for both. This attachment to fundamentalism keeps their culture between the two covers of the Qur'an and does not allow it to progress in the manner in which western cultures do.

I do see America and some other western nations moving towards a more fundamentalist interpretation of their own respected religious texts. The more threatened religious beliefs become, the louder their more extremist aspects begin to show. Dollars for donuts, I would bet that there are a few that post on this board that would gladly squeeze the trigger to end the threat of those dune coons-camel jockey's in the name of Jesus.
Interesting post---you've obviously done much research. I agree mostly across-the-board with what you say, and once again, most of my rants on all subjects stress "degree"---ALL sides have a point, it's just that some have a much STRONGER point than others. True in all modern controversies, I think.

I myself am a member of what once was viewed as a dangerous, possibly disloyal, unassimilable religion--I'm a Catholic. Even in my childhood, women in the Church were required to cover their heads---and the mass was conducted in Latin. We also had some pretty draconian rules. Growing up in a sort of "redneck" little west coast logging town, I heard a few unflattering remarks as a child. Immigrants from Arkansas and Oklahoma had a rather dim view of "them 'cat-lickers' "-----

The point is, Catholicism might have been disturbing to some, but has never advocated "taking over the world", at least not in the past millenium or so. And Catholics themselves have never preached any sort of "disloyalty" to civil government--dislike them if you must, but any "objections" to Catholics just aren't in the same league as the 'muslim' misgivings. And American Catholics, as you know, have really "watered down" many of their "foreign ways", to the point that now the Vatican looks at these "American" members almost as "mavericks". No Catholic that I've ever met has ever expressed the slightest desire to live in a "Catholic Theocracy"--those have been tried, and to be honest, they weren't very nice places---in fact, I suppose, that's why so many of us are here now.

You've alluded to the Muslims' much more rigid conducting of their lives "by the book"--society IS religion, and vice-versa.--and whether they DON'T WANT to "soften" this attitude, or they simply don't yet know HOW to, is really beside the point. The fact is, as the Muslim religion now stands, I don't think it's really compatible with liberal democracy. Either the Muslim religion must change. or any liberal society where it takes up residence will simply have to become less liberal. I don't see any third alternative.

Enjoyed your post----
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Old 09-16-2007, 01:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
The fact is, as the Muslim religion now stands, I don't think it's really compatible with liberal democracy. Either the Muslim religion must change. or any liberal society where it takes up residence will simply have to become less liberal. I don't see any third alternative.
Confrontation, antagonism, and rhetoric steeped in religion under the guise of politics does nothing to help the situation. As this Palestinian official's comments have evoked such a powerful and even emotional response by westerners, we have to realize that when Bush makes statements such as "Axis of Evil", that we are also guilty in promoting this gulf of separation. This dialectic framed in terms of good and evil is quite simply ignorance on such a profound level it befuddles the mind.

Is Islam capable of moderate and secular tendencies, I believe so in the long term, not so much in the short, due to the current geopolitical climate. As you pointed out about how the Catholic church views those Catholics in America, the same thing is happening within Jewish circles as well. I suspect the same would happen to Muslims given time. What I am not so sure about is whether the clock will run out before more meaningful cultural bridges can be built.
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
What I am not so sure about is whether the clock will run out before more meaningful cultural bridges can be built.
This is a lot of my whole point--all other comparisons aside, things are just moving so fast now that the situation could "spin out of control" very easily. Everything is tending "downward and outward" in a huge egalatarianism and everyone, everywhere, is privy to everything. Changes that used to take decades now take just a few years, and no one wants to "wait" for assimilation to take place. They want instant gratification, and they want it NOW. The venerable "rules of society" are rapidly being discarded, and a delusional "kook" can no longer just "shoot the mayor"---he can, with a little luck, incinerate a whole city. All this, as I said, is not so much a matter of anything new, it's more a matter of "degree"....
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
... things are just moving so fast now that the situation could "spin out of control" very easily.
Yup. Kind of like all of history, even before humans were on the scene. Short periods of tranquility interrupt the normal periods of spectacular upheaval.

We're definitely spinning out of control. The thing we can't predict is which form of the many "out of controls" will happen first and have the most impact.
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:50 PM
 
11,133 posts, read 13,417,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Everything is tending "downward and outward" in a huge egalatarianism and everyone, everywhere, is privy to everything. Changes that used to take decades now take just a few years, and no one wants to "wait" for assimilation to take place. They want instant gratification, and they want it NOW. The venerable "rules of society" are rapidly being discarded, and a delusional "kook" can no longer just "shoot the mayor"---he can, with a little luck, incinerate a whole city. All this, as I said, is not so much a matter of anything new, it's more a matter of "degree"....
Well I won't argue that egalitarianism is a main cause of conflict between reality and idealism. In the sense of national identity, its effects can be clearly seen when we place personal religious beliefs before that of the state. The example of Muslim women not lifting their veil to prove their identity to vote for instance. I don't believe that our founding fathers intended for religious freedoms to supersede the national or societal interest, in fact quite the contrary.
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