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Old 04-12-2012, 01:15 PM
 
47,010 posts, read 26,062,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Again, mutation is subtractive, not additive.
How do you arrive at that conclusion? In the very basic sense, what mutation can do, mutation can undo - right?

Quote:
All of the various mutations alter existing structure, but do not add additional structure to what is already there,
Gene duplication adds "additional structure" quite nicely.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,712 posts, read 13,468,099 times
Reputation: 4317
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Nonsense. Mutations are errors in replication or transcription, but do not add additional information to that which already exists. It replaces ... not adds.
What a load of crap! That's like saying you can't make any more words using the English alphabet... You can only replace them.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Point Hope Alaska
4,320 posts, read 4,794,415 times
Reputation: 1146
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
What a load of crap! That's like saying you can't make any more words using the English alphabet... You can only replace them.

Or.. add new notes to the musical scale! ?????????????
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:50 PM
 
Location: The Nanny State of MD
1,438 posts, read 1,147,545 times
Reputation: 510
Sure it is.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
3,501 posts, read 3,141,628 times
Reputation: 2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by personwhoisaperson View Post
Sure it is.
I have equal contempt for religious zealotry of all stripes.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:48 PM
 
Location: The Nanny State of MD
1,438 posts, read 1,147,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quigboto View Post
I have equal contempt for religious zealotry of all stripes.
Of course you do. You and every other saintly liberal.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
3,501 posts, read 3,141,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by personwhoisaperson View Post
Of course you do. You and every other saintly liberal.
"Saintly" would never be an used to describe me, I'm too much of a hedonist. Then again, I doubt you've met many actual liberals. Certainly not enough to base any of your sweeping generalizations on.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:02 PM
 
15,101 posts, read 8,658,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
How do you arrive at that conclusion? In the very basic sense, what mutation can do, mutation can undo - right?

Gene duplication adds "additional structure" quite nicely.
No ... a tornado cannot pass through it's own path and restore that which it destroyed on the first pass. It will not replace the roof of the house it tore off.

Secondly, gene duplication or any cell division and duplication will do one of two things ... it is supposed to make an exact copy according to it's instructions, or it suffers an error in the duplication process. In the first example, it's a copy of that which already exists. In the second example, it's an error.

You can take a dictionary .. or a novel ... make a copy. Does the copy contain additional word definitions or new chapters to the story? NO Same books .. simply repeated.

Now, if your copier jammed, and missed a few pages (mutation, transcription error) you'd have a copy of that which already exists, MINUS information.

If you copied both the dictionary and the novel simultaneously, and some pages of the novel "translocated" and joined to the dictionary ... well, you'd just have an incoherent mess on your hands that would either go unnoticed (if it were not critical pages of the novel, like the forward or the acknowledgments) or it could render the novel unintelligible or cause the reader to miss important elements of the story if those pages were critical information for the story.

In genetic mutations, the body has a way of dealing with such genetic errors ... inbuilt processes to repair such errors. A malfunction in that repair process, or damage beyond those processes ability to repair results in programmed cell death as the cell breaks apart and is then collected and discarded by white blood cells called macrophages. If that "house keeping" doesn't occur, and genetic mutations build up ... that can result in tumor and cancer, or some other genetic disease, if the mutation causes an abnormal alteration in the gene expression, such as building a faulty but critically needed protein.

The various types of genetic mutations all share one common aspect ... all of them result from an error, and thus, are by definition subtractive.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:11 PM
 
15,101 posts, read 8,658,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
What a load of crap! That's like saying you can't make any more words using the English alphabet... You can only replace them.
What an idiotic thing to say! Unless your name is Webster, we won't be recognizing any old jumble of letters you might toss together randomly, or consider your spelling errors as new words with meaning.

Just to make it clear to you ... language has structure, be it the English language, the C programming language, or the code contained in your damned DNA. And no ... you can't just make up a new language or new words as you see fit, and neither can your genes.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:39 PM
 
Location: WA
4,242 posts, read 8,782,219 times
Reputation: 2375
The importance of translocations is fascinating, isn't it. Your chromosome 2 is a amalagation of two chromosomes that were separate in our most recent common ancestor that we share with chimpanzees. Even more fascinating: the telomere of this ancestor's chromosome is stuck in the middle of our Chromosome 2!



Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
No ... a tornado cannot pass through it's own path and restore that which it destroyed on the first pass. It will not replace the roof of the house it tore off.

Secondly, gene duplication or any cell division and duplication will do one of two things ... it is supposed to make an exact copy according to it's instructions, or it suffers an error in the duplication process. In the first example, it's a copy of that which already exists. In the second example, it's an error.

You can take a dictionary .. or a novel ... make a copy. Does the copy contain additional word definitions or new chapters to the story? NO Same books .. simply repeated.

Now, if your copier jammed, and missed a few pages (mutation, transcription error) you'd have a copy of that which already exists, MINUS information.

If you copied both the dictionary and the novel simultaneously, and some pages of the novel "translocated" and joined to the dictionary ... well, you'd just have an incoherent mess on your hands that would either go unnoticed (if it were not critical pages of the novel, like the forward or the acknowledgments) or it could render the novel unintelligible or cause the reader to miss important elements of the story if those pages were critical information for the story.

In genetic mutations, the body has a way of dealing with such genetic errors ... inbuilt processes to repair such errors. A malfunction in that repair process, or damage beyond those processes ability to repair results in programmed cell death as the cell breaks apart and is then collected and discarded by white blood cells called macrophages. If that "house keeping" doesn't occur, and genetic mutations build up ... that can result in tumor and cancer, or some other genetic disease, if the mutation causes an abnormal alteration in the gene expression, such as building a faulty but critically needed protein.

The various types of genetic mutations all share one common aspect ... all of them result from an error, and thus, are by definition subtractive.
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