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Maybe the teen felt threatened when he noticed a creepy pedophile looking guy following him around his own neighborhood. There's no reason why Zimmerman was following the child around. He had no indication that the kid didn't live there in the first place.
Why would you assume Zimmerman was a pedophile? Do you have evidence the rest of us don't?
Would a 17 year old football player really be that concerned that a middle aged man was going to force him to have gay sex? If so, why didn't he simply walk into the house? HE WAS HOME. He (Martin) walked away from his house to Zimmerman, who was 200 feet away. Please explain just why he would do so if he was so scared of the mean old pedophile.
Once again, for those that haven't been paying attention. Zimmerman had stopped following when directed by the police dispatcher. He was 200 feet from Martin, and stayed that far away for several minutes. Based on the latest evidence, map and timeline, Martin approached Zimmerman prior to the altercation.
Why would you assume Zimmerman was a pedophile? Do you have evidence the rest of us don't?
Would a 17 year old football player really be that concerned that a middle aged man was going to force him to have gay sex? If so, why didn't he simply walk into the house? HE WAS HOME. He (Martin) walked away from his house to Zimmerman, who was 200 feet away. Please explain just why he would do so if he was so scared of the mean old pedophile.
Once again, for those that haven't been paying attention. Zimmerman had stopped following when directed by the police dispatcher. He was 200 feet from Martin, and stayed that far away for several minutes. Based on the latest evidence, map and timeline, Martin approached Zimmerman prior to the altercation.
I agree with you on due process, and it's in the courts hands now. But why would you want to force NW volunteers to be unarmed? Lets say hypothetically that a NW volunteer did see a criminal act taking place. Maybe a burglar walking out of his neighbor's house carrying his TV and with blood on his shirt. Wouldn't it seem likely that this would offend the criminal and that this would place the volunteer in danger? That it would make them a likely target of the criminal? Why should he/she have to give up their very real right and means to self defense? I don't understand this "logic".
Read my post again. If they go through ALL of the screening of a cop, I have little qualm with them being armed. But if we act like Goober can buy a patch saying NW and be armed, without putting him through the aforementioned, I do not want Goober armed. Neither did Sheriff taylor.
We don't know any of the above in bold. All we know is that less than three minutes after Zimmerman ended his call to the police, Trayvon was dead. EVERYTHING else is pure speculation.
map and timeline:
Quote:
A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B – Community mailboxes.
C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D – Brandy Green’s Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E – Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F – The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G – Eyewitness “John’s” townhouse. (http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012 - broken link)
Timeline of Zimmerman's 911 call.
Quote:
0:15 – The best address I can give you is the clubhouse. [A] 0:45 – He’s just staring at the houses. Now he’s staring at me. 1:00 – He’s coming towards me. 1:20 – He’s coming to check me out. 2:08 – ****, he’s running. 2:14 – Sound of truck door being closed. [C] 2:20 – He’s heading towards the back entrance. [referring to E] 2:25 – Are you following him? Yep. 2:45 – He ran… Zimmerman stops and completes the 911 call. [E] 4:05 – Call ends.
George Zimmerman leaves his truck at 2:14 and reaches Retreat View Circle just over thirty seconds later at 2:45.
Zimmerman stops following between 2:25 and 2:45 when told "we don't need you to do that" by dispatch. Martin's front door is only about 200 feet away. He has approached his house. After a few minutes (some minutes after Zimmerman's call ends at 4:05 (which is about 1 1/2 minutes after he stopped following) based on the other 911 calls) Martin leaves the area of his house (where he was staying actually) at D, goes some 200 feet and approaches Zimmerman.
These are the facts as best I know, and the only map I have seen that actually shows the locations involved. Do you have any more info that I might not have seen? If so, I'd like to see it. I'm open minded and try to form an opinion based on facts and evidence. I was pretty unsympathetic to Zimmerman until seeing the timeline, the sat image and the distances involved. After learning that the shooting took place only 210 feet (per another poster) from Martin's house, the previous 911 tapes seem to make a lot more sense. It isn't clear who started the physical confrontation. However...given that some minutes passed, and that when the 911 call was going on Martin only 200 feet from where he was staying, it's clear he wasn't running to his house to hide. He would have covered that 200 feet in seconds, not minutes. If he was trying to escape Zimmerman...why didn't he simply walk into the house? Why did he go back to where Zimmerman was waiting for the police?
None of this proves the shooting was rightous. That will be up to the eye witness, forensics evidence...and the jury. I'm not convinced of anything at this point. But there certainly is lots of reasonable doubt without more evidence.
I'm pretty convinced that Zimmerman isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. He apparently had quite a conversation with the PD based on news reports. One thing that every CCW class that I have taken stresses is that if you do shoot, you only say two things to the police.
1) I was in fear for my life
2) I'll be happy to talk with you after I talk with my lawyer.
We can expect any CCW training he has taken to be examined during the trial.
Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 04-14-2012 at 12:33 AM..
Zimmerman stops following between 2:25 and 2:45 when told "we don't need you to do that" by dispatch. Martin's front door is only about 200 feet away. He has approached his house. After some minutes (some minutes after Zimmerman's call ends at 4:05, based on the other 911 calls) Martin leaves the area of his house (where he was staying actually) at D, goes some 200 feet and approaches Zimmerman.
These are the facts as best I know, and the only map I have seen that actually shows the locations involved. Do you have any more info that I might not have seen? If so, I'd like to see it. I'm open minded and try to form an opinion based on facts and evidence. I was pretty unsympathetic to Zimmerman until seeing the timeline, the sat image and the distances involved. After learning that the shooting took place only 210 feet (per another poster) from Martin's house, the previous 911 tapes seem to make a lot more sense. It isn't clear who started the physical confrontation. However...given that some minutes passed, and that when Martin only 200 feet from where he was staying, it's clear he wasn't running to his house to hide. He would have covered that 200 feet in seconds, not minutes. If he was trying to escape Zimmerman...why didn't he simply walk into the house? Why did he go back to where Zimmerman was waiting for the police?
What makes you say that Martin reached the home he was visiting then
went back 70 yards to confront Zimmerman? That's completely inconsistent with the telephone record as well as with the statements made by Trayvon's girlfriend. If Zimmerman is such a good guy, why is he only now...when the reality of incarceration has hit him...decided to issue an apology to Trayvon's parents? If I had to kill someone, even in self-defense, I'd be so filled with remorse and regret. Yet Zimmerman has yet to express either one; that says a great deal about the real George, and not the one concocted by his family and a friend. As Katiana asked, prove it.
You guys are going back and forth about details that aren't the most important. This entire case will essentially come down to who was screaming "HELP...HELP!!" on the 911 tapes. If it's Zimmerman, he'll likely be acquitted; if it's Trayvon, Zimmerman will most definitely be convicted of murder and get sentenced to at least a 25 year prison sentence as it would be 100% clear that he absolutely didn't shoot Trayvon in self-defense.
My guess, based on what I know about Zimmerman's past and what those two or three voice recognition experts concluded about who screamed for help, is that Zimmerman probably didn't shoot Trayvon in self-defense, but out of anger and frustration as a result of their brief encounter. There was probably a brief fist fight and they ended up on the ground, but then Zimmerman gained control of the situation, grabbed a hold of Trayvon (hence the HELP HELP!! heard on the 911 tapes), and out of anger and frustration, shot Trayvon to death.
Last edited by midatlantic12; 04-14-2012 at 01:44 AM..
You guys are going back and forth about details that aren't the most important. This entire case will essentially come down to who was screaming "HELP...HELP!!" on the 911 tapes. If it's Zimmerman, he'll likely be acquitted; if it's Trayvon, Zimmerman will most definitely be convicted of murder and get sentenced to at least a 25 year prison sentence as it would be 100% clear that he absolutely didn't shoot Trayvon in self-defense.
Very true, and as it should be. IF he was the one screaming for help for a minute or so, it's very reasonable to conclude that he had reason to fear for his life, and the shooting was self defense. If it was Martin, it's pretty hard to make a case that he was a threat.
From the link Evenstar provided:
Quote:
About 7:10 p.m.: Phone records show Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend around the time he saw Zimmerman while returning on foot from a convenience store to his father's fiancee's home.
About 7:25 p.m.: Martin is shot and killed. It is raining.
If we trust CNNs reporters, this all took place over a 15 minute period. And according to the map, the total distance from the clubhouse (where Zimmerman first called police) to Martin's house looks to be about 300 feet. 100 yards. If Martin was scared of Zimmerman, was running away trying to get home as many posters and so-called reporters have speculated...how is it possible that he was unable to get home and lock the door? He was a 17 year old football player, not an 80 year old grandmother with a walker.
You guys are going back and forth about details that aren't the most important. This entire case will essentially come down to who was screaming "HELP...HELP!!" on the 911 tapes. If it's Zimmerman, he'll likely be acquitted; if it's Trayvon, Zimmerman will most definitely be convicted of murder and get sentenced to at least a 20 year prison sentence as it would be 100% clear that he absolutely didn't shoot Trayvon in self-defense.
My guess, based on what I know about Zimmerman's past and what those two or three voice recognition experts concluded about who screamed for help, is that Zimmerman probably didn't shoot Trayvon in self-defense, but out of anger and frustration as a result of their brief encounter. There was probably a brief fist fight and they ended up on the ground, but then Zimmerman gained control of the situation, grabbed a hold of Trayvon (hence the HELP HELP!! heard on the 911 tapes), and out of anger and frustration, shot Trayvon to death.
I'll bet the defense can also find 2-3 voice experts that says the voice is GZ on that tape.
What makes you say that Martin reached the home he was visiting then
went back 70 yards to confront Zimmerman? That's completely inconsistent with the telephone record as well as with the statements made by Trayvon's girlfriend. If Zimmerman is such a good guy, why is he only now...when the reality of incarceration has hit him...decided to issue an apology to Trayvon's parents? If I had to kill someone, even in self-defense, I'd be so filled with remorse and regret. Yet Zimmerman has yet to express either one; that says a great deal about the real George, and not the one concocted by his family and a friend. As Katiana asked, prove it.
I draw conclusions based on evidence and on facts presented. We have a 911 call from Zimmerman. We hear him running (jogging actually, based on the rate of footsteps). We hear him stop running (no more pounding foot steps or heavy breathing) very shortly after he is told "we don't need you to do that". Reports place him in the area shown on the map as E, which is consistent with his statement. We have reports that Martin ran around the entrance to the development and was running towards (what we now know was) his door, some 200 feet away. We know several minutes went by before the shooting toop place and that Zimmerman reported that he was walking back to his vehicle when confronted by Martin. That is consistant with where the shooting took place.
What does when he appologized have to do with the FACTS. His life had been threatened and he was in hiding. DO you expect him to go and knock on the Martin's door and say I'm sorry?
I'm not saying he's a good guy. And I'm not saying that he DID shoot in self defense. I am saying that what we have for evidence so far fits the facts as he presented. Specifically, that he was watching Martin and reporting his position to police. That he lost sight of him, and continued to wait for police. That after some time (based on your link, it appears to be about 10 minutes) he began walking back to his vehicle, and was confronted by Martin on the way. This fits the timeline, the locations with respect to where Martin was staying, where Zimmerman waited for police, and where his vehicle was parked.
Martin running home and Zimmerman running him down on the way and shooting him in cold blood, and taking 15 minutes to cover 300 feet, doesn't.
Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 04-14-2012 at 01:08 AM..
I agree with you on due process, and it's in the courts hands now. But why would you want to force NW volunteers to be unarmed? Lets say hypothetically that a NW volunteer did see a criminal act taking place. Maybe a burglar walking out of his neighbor's house carrying his TV and with blood on his shirt. Wouldn't it seem likely that this would offend the criminal and that this would place the volunteer in danger? That it would make them a likely target of the criminal? Why should he/she have to give up their very real right and means to self defense? I don't understand this "logic".
I probably wouldn't be a NW volunteer in some areas without being armed. I know one person said I am not consistent in my views, but he is wrong. Many communities pay armed security guards, so there's not much of a difference as long as that person understands his limits and has been properly trained.
Maybe the problem isn't only with the guns, but who is carrying them. Still, we can't psychoanalyze everyone who buys a gun, so I don't know what the answer is, since almost anyone can get a gun permit. In any case, nobody should use a weapon unless his life is in imminent danger. IMHO no matter what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, Zimmerman caused the problem by not following the rules.
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