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it's not a country club any non Jew (whether or not they have a Jewish father) can join if they want to all they have to do is get an Orthodox conversion.
I will answer you and flipflop together. You know a conversion is not that simple...relatively speaking. Furthermore, I don't know if it is a myth, but aren't you usually turned down three times.
In comparison to Christians and Muslims it is quite complex. With Christians it is just a few words and a baptism.
Furthermore, a lot of orthodox Jews are not very welcoming of converts. I saw this when I was in Atlanta and I had a lot Jewish friends.
As for me, yes my mother and grandmother are both Jewish. My father is Danish and I was not raised Jewish. I look like my father and most people do not know that I am Jewish. I miss my Jewish friends from Atlanta. I am the only Jewish person I know where I live now. I am secular and plan to stay that way.
But this conversation is why young adults are running from Judaism as fast as they can. I am the product of an inter-religious marriage, but was raised Jewish. That is, until I went to a Jewish college and met people like flipflop and NYJew who do everything in their power to run me out of Judaism. Why bother when I can never be good enough?
If supporting Obama's candidacy and holding a socially liberal view makes me a bad Jew, then I wish you luck as you push Jews into extinction. Why would I want to raise my children to believe as you do? Or be subjected to your children?
My new favorite person on CD and my favorite post by far. Also product of inter-religious marriage, but was not raised Jewish.
I will answer you and flipflop together. You know a conversion is not that simple...relatively speaking. Furthermore, I don't know if it is a myth, but aren't you usually turned down three times.
Yes, we Jews are not looking for any converts, and we do indeed turn down non-Jews 3 times before even considering looking at them for conversion. The typical halachic conversion (i.e., an Orthodox conversion) takes 1-3 years to complete, and can only be done from a city with a substantial Orthodox Jewish population with a reputible beis din. Any conversion that is done that does not include the future Jew accepting to follow all 613 mitzvahs is considered invalid, and that person remains non-Jewish.
However, once somebody has completed a proper conversion, they are 1 million percent Jewish, and in fact, halacha dictates that we Jews born Jewish must be especially sensitive to treat them with kindness and respect. If you met Jews treating converts with dis-respect, then those Jews have some middos to begin working on. In my experience in Orthodox shuls, converts are treated as equals. In fact, we learn that it's as if their neshamos (Jewish souls) stood with Am Yisroel at Mattan Torah at Har Sinai (the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai).
Yes, we Jews are not looking for any converts, and we do indeed turn down non-Jews 3 times before even considering looking at them for conversion. The typical halachic conversion (i.e., an Orthodox conversion) takes 1-3 years to complete, and can only be done from a city with a substantial Orthodox Jewish population with a reputible beis din. Any conversion that is done that does not include the future Jew accepting to follow all 613 mitzvahs is considered invalid, and that person remains non-Jewish.
However, once somebody has completed a proper conversion, they are 1 million percent Jewish, and in fact, halacha dictates that we Jews born Jewish must be especially sensitive to treat them with kindness and respect. If you met Jews treating converts with dis-respect, then those Jews have some middos to begin working on. In my experience in Orthodox shuls, converts are treated as equals. In fact, we learn that it's as if their neshamos (Jewish souls) stood with Am Yisroel at Mattan Torah at Har Sinai (the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai).
Well then I was correct. Judaism is the Augusta National of the Abrahamic Religions.
I can sadly list more than a half-dozen examples of people I've known in my lifetime who are self-identified Jews, but do not meet the halachic requirements to be considered a Jew. In more than one of those cases, they are raising their non-Jewish children as Jews, where the child for sure has no idea he/she is not Jewish, and the parent probably also does not know. Therein lies the challenge that we are facing as a nation - hence the direction that Torah Observant Jews avoid marrying non Torah Observant Jews. Doesn't mean we hate or disrespect them - we simply are forbidden to marry them.
Jewish history demonstrates over and over, that when a group of Jews forms to together to "reform" the Torah to fit their personal views or needs, that "reforming group" ceases to exist after several generation - 4 or 5 at most. While it's true that 85% of the Jews in the US currently are not shommer mitzvahs and Torah, NY Jew is entirely correct that observant Jews as a population are exploding in the US, while both the Reform and Conservative movements are in decline. The link I provided earlier in this thread showing the data to support this sad fact says the 2 movements have less than a century of existence left in them before they, like many similar movements before them, will be swallowed back into Torah Judaism as a whole.
The good news, is that Hashem made a promise to the Jews, that if we keep His Torah, He will keep us. It's not so much that we keep the Torah, as it keeps us (in existence). Non religious Jews should not dispair that Judasim will ever cease to exist as long as their Jewish bretheren in places like B'Nei Barak, Meah Sharim, Boro Park and Flatbush. It's the non religious Jews choice whether or not they choose to disparage us Yidden who have chosen to keep the Torah.
For most of us who are Jewish, living an Orthodox life isn't a possibility. I can't do something that my heart and intellect tells me is wrong on so many counts. When I sit in my Reform synagogue, I feel my spirit move.
As far as Orthodox deciding that all Reform Jews aren't Jewish--well that is your problem, and it is quite sad. On the other hand, I would be quite relieved if my child couldn't marry an ultraorthodox person since I have seen what happens to my friends' children who become baalei tschuva. It is very similar to joining a cult. Suddenly, the child can't eat at home, goes into a very closed world where religion--instead of encouraging family ties--destroys them.
I would rather my child not be Jewish than to be swallowed by this cult.
For most of us who are Jewish, living an Orthodox life isn't a possibility. I can't do something that my heart and intellect tells me is wrong on so many counts. When I sit in my Reform synagogue, I feel my spirit move.
As far as Orthodox deciding that all Reform Jews aren't Jewish--well that is your problem, and it is quite sad. On the other hand, I would be quite relieved if my child couldn't marry an ultraorthodox person since I have seen what happens to my friends' children who become baalei tschuva. It is very similar to joining a cult. Suddenly, the child can't eat at home, goes into a very closed world where religion--instead of encouraging family ties--destroys them.
I would rather my child not be Jewish than to be swallowed by this cult.
It's all perspective. Nothing wrong with being a Reform Jew, as long as you commit to marrying Jewish and raising your kids as Jews. If you can just lock down the "remaining a Jew," the "observance" part will work itself out over time. Nothing to fret over.
With regards to calling Orthodox Jews a cult... what can I say? In additional to being incorrect, it's rather mean to say. None of my extended family is Orthodox - half of them married non-Jews, and guess what, my family bonds are rock solid. We had years of trying to work it all out, and guess what, that effort made our relationships that much stronger.
My mother came over this morning with a dress she had bought for one of my daughters. My mom was so proud, because the dress length was below my daughter's knees, and she knew she had purchased something my daughter would like. I'm sure my mom left my house and stopped on the way home to buy a treif McMuffin, but you know, it all works. She also sits at my Shabbos table respectfully and eats the kosher food in my home. Sound cultish to you, or just like a Jewish family doing what it takes to get along?
He believes that is the business of the states and not the federal government.
Besides, the Constitution should not be used to limit the rights of groups. How would you like it if there was a proposed constitutional amendment to deny religious freedom to Orthodox Jews? I would stridently oppose such an amendment. Unfortunately, you can't understand why other people would want equal rights, and you seem to be in love with the notion of strong federal power.
I will answer you and flipflop together. You know a conversion is not that simple...relatively speaking. Furthermore, I don't know if it is a myth, but aren't you usually turned down three times.
In comparison to Christians and Muslims it is quite complex. With Christians it is just a few words and a baptism.
Furthermore, a lot of orthodox Jews are not very welcoming of converts. I saw this when I was in Atlanta and I had a lot Jewish friends.
As for me, yes my mother and grandmother are both Jewish. My father is Danish and I was not raised Jewish. I look like my father and most people do not know that I am Jewish. I miss my Jewish friends from Atlanta. I am the only Jewish person I know where I live now. I am secular and plan to stay that way.
I've personally never have seen Orthodox Jews treat a (Orthodox) convert any different then a ordinary Jew, though if it happens it would be a great sin. It's 100% forbidden to even remind a convert of his pre conversion past.
There is a community issue in the Syrian community based on a intermarriage problem.
I personally know many converts including one who's father was Jewish and was 100% excepted by everybody
What most likely happened in Atlanta was that there was a conversion that wasn't kosher (Reform or Conservative conversions are worthless) because it wasn't done in the proper way and therefore they didn't treat them as Jews because the weren't.
He believes that is the business of the states and not the federal government.
Besides, the Constitution should not be used to limit the rights of groups. How would you like it if there was a proposed constitutional amendment to deny religious freedom to Orthodox Jews? I would stridently oppose such an amendment. Unfortunately, you can't understand why other people would want equal rights, and you seem to be in love with the notion of strong federal power.
the worst law in NYC are due to Albany not Washington.
I've personally never have seen Orthodox Jews treat a (Orthodox) convert any different then a ordinary Jew, though if it happens it would be a great sin. It's 100% forbidden to even remind a convert of his pre conversion past.
There is a community issue in the Syrian community based on a intermarriage problem.
I personally know many converts including one who's father was Jewish and was 100% excepted by everybody
What most likely happened in Atlanta was that there was a conversion that wasn't kosher (Reform or Conservative conversions are worthless) because it wasn't done in the proper way and therefore they didn't treat them as Jews because the weren't.
Well you may not have personal knowledge of it happening, but I have seen it and so have others.
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