Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"The police" is different from the practice of policing. All groups self police, but not as "the police" necessarily do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
Why put someone through all that? If there's some atheist out there wanting to lead a Christian group for whatever reason, better for them to know right away what the qualifications for the job are. And this is coming from an atheist who has actually contemplated such folly. I wouldn't be any more offended by that than I am at something in the classfieds reading "Bachelor's Degree required". Saves one a whole lot of time and effort, imo.
And there would have be self-policing practices in place, such as elections, that would have prevented you from gaining a leadership position. There would have also been other policing practices that most likely would have made your participation in the group difficult.
I would like to see a non-Muslim try and see what happens ...
There have been non-Jewish students on the Hillel board at my alma mater and while I am not sure about the leadership of the MSA, I was always welcomed to their celebrations as a Jewish student. Their mission: "The Muslim Students Association serve the needs of the Muslim students on campus. It helps to raise awareness of Muslims and is an excellent source for information on Islam. In the spirit of Islam the MSA welcomes students of all nations, races, color, culture or ethnicity to come visit us at our prayer room and get involved!"
And again, it's not the point. The club is REQUESTING FUNDING and must abide by the rules in order to get this funding like every other club.
"... the university took issue with a requirement that leaders have a “personal commitment to Jesus Christ.” Who says there isn't a war on religion?
I do, most certainly say this is not a war on religion. No doubt this is a State sponsored or federally funded university that benefits from government funding, and thereby cannot discriminate based on religion.
It's anyone's constitutional right to join a religious club. What I don't understand, since Christianity seems to be about spreading the message to non-Christian, what is the uproar about?
On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. Look at it from a GBLTQ advocacy group perspective - many allies who are cis-gender and straight participate in these groups. The current executive board is in charge of the constitution - they cannot set a codified standard that would not allow allies to hold positions of power. While the elections might end that way, it removes discriminatory power from the current e-board.
In order for non-exclusionary policies to work, they must be equally administered across all clubs and activities.
See the above example.
How does that even address my point, that when your choices and behavior conflict with a club's mission, they have the right to refuse membership and the eligibility of leadership?
Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00
I am sorry that you cannot see the logic of the policy.
If there was some logic to it, that would help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00
The other groups accomplish this by voting. Are the Christian groups really that afraid of a fair election?
Maybe, maybe not. I'd prefer not to speculate. Really doesn't matter anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00
If the guys who posts an ad in the personals is requesting funding and recognition from an organizing body that has those rules in place, then sure.
Nonsense. Again, what an authority can and should do are two different things and always will be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LookinForMayberry
It's anyone's constitutional right to join a religious club. What I don't understand, since Christianity seems to be about spreading the message to non-Christian, what is the uproar about?
It's not anyone's constitutional right to join any club. That's what clubs ARE, the single sort of group that can deny membership at will. Though I will agree it wouldn't be morally RIGHT to deny membership/eligibility for leadership based on something beyond a person's control, this clearly does not fit into that category.
And my guess would be, considering this is about leadership in particular, Christians don't want someone at the helm who won't act in their "best interests" (and as an atheist, I do use that phrase lightly). We do this all the frickin time in practice all over the nation; writing it down doesn't suddenly make it wrong.
So you don't believe that this is a violation of the first amendment?
It matters not what I believe, it only matters what the Constitution says. The Constitution only protects you from government, and also from any person or entity acting as an agent of the government or under the "color" of government.
The Constitution protects no one from private individuals or groups.
Put another way, the Constitution is a Contract between you and the government, not between you and me.
As several previously pointed out, Vanderbilt is a private university. It is nether the government, nor an agent of the government, nor does it act under the "color" of government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars&StripesForever
What evil? Love your enemy. Love your brother. Turn the other cheek. Give to the poor. Care for the sick? That's evil? That's what Jesus said.
Jesus murdered several billion people in a "flood" for being "wicked" (and he thought plants and animals were wicked too).
Jesus also murdered Onan for "spilling his seed on the ground."
Jesus sent a pack of bears to maul a group of small children who had laughed at a bald man.
Jesus intends to destroy the Earth.
That all sounds evil to me.
Divinely...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerLily24
Not sure why anyone would join a Christian club who didn't have a commitment to Christ, but, leaving that aside for a moment...
I take it you've never destroyed anything.
The best way to destroy something is from the inside.
I could infiltrate the group, get into a leadership position, start pushing my agenda, pull my confidants along on my coat-tails, so that they can help me push my agenda, then eventually I'll gain total control, surround myself with my minions and then begin carrying out and executing my agenda, which in this instance, wouldn't have anything to do with christianity.
It isn't rocket science, it's just common sense. Hell, my cat knows how to do that.
Destroying...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255
In order to be an official student group sanctioned by the University, the University requires a non-discrimination policy. As per the policy any and all groups sanctioned by the University can't discriminate on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, etc. These groups have decided not to follow that policy which applies to all student groups. It really is that simple.
Well, apparently a lot of these clowns don't get it.
If they want money from the university, then might I suggest they not bite the hand that feeds them.
Non-discriminating...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflight
Soviet Russia proved that non-religious belief can be pretty evil. I'll take the street preacher over the commissar any day.
Of course you will, right up to the point when the street preacher has a throng of people ready to burn you at the stake for something really bizarre.
I would like to see a non-Muslim try and see what happens ...
Happens all the time, and I gave similar examples from my own college on another post... I know you're really wishing it weren't the case, but it seems only the Christian groups have a problem with inclusivity here.
Happens all the time, and I gave similar examples from my own college on another post... I know you're really wishing it weren't the case, but it seems only the Christian groups have a problem with inclusivity here.
Idk about that. If I were to make an atheist's club of some kind, I would not want Christians allowed in, and I wouldn't want to waste their time or mine by going through a voting game for which the result would be the exact same as not letting them join.
Yes, I'd even want to do it that way if it were being funded by someone else; and yes, I'd argue that they have no moral right to make me budge on who I let into my club.
Quote:
Originally Posted by helenejen
Yes, in flagrant disregard of Jesus' teachings.
Where did Jesus say to make leaders out of those who don't follow God? I mean, the Christian God supposedly put sinners to use in one way or another. But leaders of people who were already "saved"?
Idk about that. If I were to make an atheist's club of some kind, I would not want Christians allowed in, and I wouldn't want to waste their time or mine by going through a voting game for which the result would be the exact same as not letting them join.
Yes, I'd even want to do it that way if it were being funded by someone else; and yes, I'd argue that they have no moral right to make me budge on who I let into my club.
And you would quickly lose your argument, along with any university funding... you may not like it, but those are the rules! Chances are a devout Christian wouldn't want to join your group anyway, but you still must give them the option. As I already mentioned, we had a few non-Jews in my
Hillel group, and they were both welcomed and valued.
It's not anyone's constitutional right to join any club. That's what clubs ARE, the single sort of group that can deny membership at will. Though I will agree it wouldn't be morally RIGHT to deny membership/eligibility
But it's the university students' right to join the university club of their choice, per university rules. Why do you even bring up subjects like help wanted requirements language? This isn't for a job. This isn't for church membership. This isn't for private club membership. It's for a university club and as such, must follow the university guidelines. The clubs are not free to deny membership at will. If they want that freedom, they can form an off-campus, non-university-funded club.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
