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Old 04-27-2012, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Pluto's Home Town
9,982 posts, read 13,757,898 times
Reputation: 5691

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Governments do not respond to help the economy as a whole, governments exist to shift surplus from producers to consumers, and do so at a net loss to the entire economic system. When a government responds to a free market economy, it reduces the burden on the consumer, but sacrifices net economic growth within the company (shown by the tax revenue box in this graph). So does government interaction help the consumer? Yes, for a time, if we want to enact a short term solution instead of a project which builds a system of long term growth. So I your government interaction does help the consumer, but only temporarily, and does so at a loss to the country's economic system as a whole. Great plan champ.



And you say conservatives are economically illiterate?
Well this graph does not take temporal fluctuations into account. When the private sector overleverages itself and goes into free fall, capital will inevitably flee, causing a runaway recession/depression. The government can intervene in precisely those times to "temporarily" balance things out. That is exactly what a stimulus package does. But what is also not captured in that graph is if the economy will benefit from using foreign labor, such that capital accrues, but it is not shared across the society. That is what we are seeing since NAFTA or earlier. And in the latest debacle, the private sector hosed the economy, got bailed out, invested overseas, and left the American worker in the tank. Multinational corporations are sworn to maximize profit, not serve the public welfare. Hence the government will always have a role.

This ideological drivel from the right is getting so old. No, we cannot have a country with no government, and a minute government sector. We need a healthy and vibrant public sector. No one wants to create Cuba in the USA, nor do we want to create Somalia. But people constantly argue against abstract absolutes (Obama is a marxist!!!) that have no grounding in reality. There are many mixed economies that are very successful, and they are the only places where any American would feel remotely comfortable. So enough with Limbaughland, and return to the reality that is the USA. It is, and will remain, a mixed economy. Deal with it.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:42 AM
 
9,855 posts, read 15,201,832 times
Reputation: 5481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
Well this graph does not take temporal fluctuations into account. When the private sector overleverages itself and goes into free fall, capital will inevitably flee, causing a runaway recession/depression. The government can intervene in precisely those times to "temporarily" balance things out. That is exactly what a stimulus package does. But what is also not captured in that graph is if the economy will benefit from using foreign labor, such that capital accrues, but it is not shared across the society. That is what we are seeing since NAFTA or earlier. And in the latest debacle, the private sector hosed the economy, got bailed out, invested overseas, and left the American worker in the tank. Multinational corporations are sworn to maximize profit, not serve the public welfare. Hence the government will always have a role.

This ideological drivel from the right is getting so old. No, we cannot have a country with no government, and a minute government sector. We need a healthy and vibrant public sector. No one wants to create Cuba in the USA, nor do we want to create Somalia. But people constantly argue against abstract absolutes (Obama is a marxist!!!) that have no grounding in reality.
...the graph does take those issues into account. The graph addresses the base taxation that creates the funds necessary for the government to be able to enact a bailout.

Please re-read my previous post and try again. Maximizing profit IS serving the public welfare. The companies that hosed the economy should never have been bailed out. The bailouts hindered innovation, created disincentives for other companies to fill the gaps, and overall created greater debt without adequate plans of repayment.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:44 AM
 
1,378 posts, read 1,391,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post

Maximizing profit IS serving the public welfare.
That's not true, and you know it's not true.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:47 AM
 
9,855 posts, read 15,201,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenSJC View Post
That's not true, and you know it's not true.
Maximizing profits is one of the most beneficial things a company can do for society. Highly profitable companies drive innovation, create jobs, create growth.

Why the hell would I "know this is not true?" I would be pretty upset with a company that didn't try to maximize profits.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:50 AM
 
1,378 posts, read 1,391,522 times
Reputation: 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Maximizing profits is one of the most beneficial things a company can do for society. Highly profitable companies drive innovation, create jobs, create growth.

Why the hell would I "know this is not true?" I would be pretty upset with a company that didn't try to maximize profits.
Let me rephrase. It's not necessarily true that maximizing profits creates jobs. Look at the years of speculation in real estate and the financial sector.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,792 posts, read 13,944,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbel View Post
No, it's not an economic truth. It's actually a hotly debated topic and has been for some time. FDR, being the prime example of government injected dollars into the economy, has been both lauded and demonized for his handling of the Depression. There are an equal number of sources that say he prolonged the Depression as there are that say he helped it.

Like I said, this is one of the most fundamental differences between the left and the right. In my education, I've had Econ profs that advocated government intervention and those that are strongly against said intervention; all of my profs were quite well respected in the field and yet had completely different viewpoints. So, not an economic truth.
There are not "an equal number of sources that say he prolonged the Depression as there are that say he helped it." I covered all that here: //www.city-data.com/forum/polit...l#post21843700

The fact is that it's universally accepted by economists that the New Deal policies improved the Depression.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:54 AM
 
9,855 posts, read 15,201,832 times
Reputation: 5481
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenSJC View Post
Let me rephrase. It's not necessarily true that maximizing profits creates jobs. Look at the years of speculation in real estate and the financial sector.
Those years of speculation created unfettered wealth for the middle class over the last handful of decades. Between 1950 and today the average middle class family's home has doubled in size, the number of cars owned has doubled, the size of vacations taken has dramatically increased.

Ironic that we whine when the financial sector makes a mistake, but we don't praise them for giving us great lifestyles over the last 50 years.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Tampa Florida
22,229 posts, read 17,850,288 times
Reputation: 4585
Has anybody come up with anything yet?
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Area 51.5
13,887 posts, read 13,666,916 times
Reputation: 9174
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
Specifically, what taxes did Obama raise?
It's not always specifically about TAXES.

Try penalties, and start with ObammyCare.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:03 PM
 
9,855 posts, read 15,201,832 times
Reputation: 5481
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida.bob View Post
Has anybody come up with anything yet?
Actually read the thread before posting champ.
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