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Do you live in a hut in the congo? This is the US. Disposable income is everywhere. Kids were buying these stupid necklaces for fifty bucks to look cool. A swoosh on a pair of shorts makes em sell for fifty bucks instead of ten. If I have to provide more examples then you are farther lost than anyone I've ever seen post on this board.
So we're not in a recession anymore and the economy is booming--people have ALL KINDS of money to spend? That must be really good news for the Obama campaign.
Do you ever think about what you're saying before you say it? The reason I can't take a bunch of you seriously is that you'll say whatever you think will win an argument vs. something rational or true, and you contradict yourselves constantly. Which way is it--is the economy better or not? Do middle class people have disposable income to purchase consumer goods to stimulate the economy or not? You can't play this one out both sides of your mouth.
Hmm, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?? Sounds to me that everyone needs the other.
Imagine if you had the disposable income but there were no gadgets to buy (there was no rich investor who could borrow millions to make the gadgets).
Imagine that there were gadgets but no one had disposable income (people who were paid a reasonable income and knew how to handle their finances well so they were not up to their eyeballs in debt therefor having disposable income.
Thats something to ponder.
Aren't venture capital firms corporations, subject to corporate taxes (which need to be reduced) vs. the owner paying personal income taxes on the profits? Just like any other business, the owner pays himself a salary from the venture capital firm. The discussion is on raising personal income taxes for the wealthy--not corporate taxes.
So we're not in a recession anymore and the economy is booming--people have ALL KINDS of money to spend? That must be really good news for the Obama campaign.
Do you ever think about what you're saying before you say it? The reason I can't take a bunch of you seriously is that you'll say whatever you think will win an argument vs. something rational or true, and you contradict yourselves constantly. Which way is it--is the economy better or not? Do middle class people have disposable income to purchase consumer goods to stimulate the economy or not? You can't play this one out both sides of your mouth.
Look around. Go to a ballgame. Everyboyd has their heads buried in their gadgets. I can't take you seriously when you make no sense. People buying crap on credit has been going on for a while now. I guess you live in some alternate universe.
You and the idiots at TED have conflated job growth with job creation.
They are not necessarily the same thing.
Consumer demand spurs job growth. That is simply expansion. It is possible that if consumer demand is high enough, it can result in new entrants into that particular market, and that will create jobs. However, the grotesque over-regulation stifles job creation by new entrants to the market.
Where job creation is concerned, you and TED have put the cart before the horse.
How many consumers were buying MP3 Players, before MP3 Players existed?
Obviously none, yet there was a demand for them, based on market research.
So, I need $6 Million to set up and run manufacturing, production and distribution operations for 4-6 years until I am getting a sufficient return on profits to be self-sustaining.
Where do I get that $6 Million?
The government? Nope.
Banks? Nope.
The Money Fairy? Nope.
It falls out of the sky? Nope.
Jesus comes down from Heaven and writes me a check? Nope.
Consumers? Of what? Consumers cannot buy MP3 Players, because I've not yet gotten $6 Million to make and sell them to consumers.
Where does that $6 Million come from? Venture Capitalists.
Or maybe just garden-variety investors. Maybe I shop my business plan around out of frustration and desperation and via networking, I run into a gal who tells me she likes my idea and she'll pony up $500,000 but I still need $5.5 Million.
But she knows people. She knows a couple guys who might be interested.
And 5 or 6 months later, I've got about a dozen investors willing to give me anywhere from $250,000 to $1.5 Million to get started.
What have I gotten thus far from the government, banks and consumers, and idiots like TED?
The sum total of $0
See how that works?
Apparently not.
Now suppose I run the company for 4 years and I woefully under-estimated demand and I need $2 Million to expand. Where do I get that money?
Consumers? Nope.
The government? Nope.
Banks? Possibly. I show them my business plan, plus my financials for the last 4 years, and they say, okay, we'll loan you $1 Million.
That's cool, but I still need another $1 Million. Again, it will be investors, ie the "rich" who help me out here.
I suppose TED has some ulterior motive, like he wants you to buy gold (snicker).
Venturing...
Mircea
Mircea, There is a problem using things like the Internet, the World Wide Web and the MP-3 as examples of capitalist creativity in technology because they are not. All of these were invented and devoloped in Government paid for and operated laboratories or on government contracts. The Internet was invented by the US military that needed to solve the proble of how to communicate with its surviving Forces in a nuclear war. The WWW was created at CERN to sent large amounts of data to hundreds of labs and universities in the partner and associate nations. The MP-3 format and the basic chip set needed for MP-3 recording and playback was invented in Germany. The MP in MP-3 stands for the organization that did the work the Max Planck Society or in German Max Planck Gessellschaft (MPG). These are better examples of what can be done by working together in a collective effort to solve problems at the cutting edge of human endevour. This is the very best of SOCIALISM!
Look around. Go to a ballgame. Everyboyd has their heads buried in their gadgets. I can't take you seriously when you make no sense. People buying crap on credit has been going on for a while now. I guess you live in some alternate universe.
So what you're saying is that the economy is booming now? Not that Obama has sunk the economy? I'm just trying to get your story straight from one sentence to the next.
For the record, I'm a business owner. People who were buying on credit (without paying off their statement monthly) are for the most part long gone, because if you were mismanaging your credit earlier you don't have it anymore. What I see are people who've become extremely cautious about spending, and tend to go with cash and pay as you go. The data doesn't back up use of credit either--most research shows that credit card use is at an all time low.
Mircea, There is a problem using things like the Internet, the World Wide Web and the MP-3 as examples of capitalist creativity in technology because they are not. All of these were invented and devoloped in Government paid for and operated laboratories or on government contracts. The Internet was invented by the US military that needed to solve the proble of how to communicate with its surviving Forces in a nuclear war. The WWW was created at CERN to sent large amounts of data to hundreds of labs and universities in the partner and associate nations. The MP-3 format and the basic chip set needed for MP-3 recording and playback was invented in Germany. The MP in MP-3 stands for the organization that did the work the Max Planck Society or in German Max Planck Gessellschaft (MPG). These are better examples of what can be done by working together in a collective effort to solve problems at the cutting edge of human endevour. This is the very best of SOCIALISM!
That's a very good argument for government funded basic research that can in turn be built on by industry with applied research for product development. It's how you build a strong industrial base.
That's a very good argument for government funded basic research that can in turn be built on by industry with applied research for product development. It's how you build a strong industrial base.
So we're not in a recession anymore and the economy is booming--people have ALL KINDS of money to spend?
Your economy is growing, therefore you cannot be in a recession. A successful economy is not necessarily dependent on whether people have money or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb1547
Which way is it--is the economy better or not?
Better. The fact that there is high unemployment is not relevant to the success of an economy. There are no Economic Laws or Economic Models related to employment/unemployment.
You can have 0% unemployment and negative growth in the economy, so that doesn't say much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwruckman
Mircea, There is a problem using things like the Internet, the World Wide Web and the MP-3 as examples of capitalist creativity in technology because they are not. All of these were invented and devoloped in Government paid for and operated laboratories or on government contracts.
I'm well aware of that. I have stated repeatedly that CD/DVD technology comes directly from the military, specifically the nuclear weapons program (but I do not discuss that in detail except with other people who are knowledge about nuclear weapons).
Even so, that's only the core technology. They government did not design MP3 players. Entrepreneurs did that.
I used the MP3 Player as an example, because I thought it was an example that everyone could easily grasp.
My mistake.
Economically...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb1547
Do middle class people have disposable income to purchase consumer goods to stimulate the economy or not? You can't play this one out both sides of your mouth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eRayP
Hmm, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?? Sounds to me that everyone needs the other.
Imagine if you had the disposable income but there were no gadgets to buy (there was no rich investor who could borrow millions to make the gadgets).
Imagine that there were gadgets but no one had disposable income (people who were paid a reasonable income and knew how to handle their finances well so they were not up to their eyeballs in debt therefor having disposable income.
Thats something to ponder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb1547
And at the end of the day, if consumers don't have the disposable income to buy MP3 players, all the research and investment amounts for squat, because you aren't going to have any sales to pay back the venture capitalists. It still all goes back to the consumer. That's the part you seem to struggle with. It isn't enough to have a cool product--you have to have people with the resources to buy it.
Your arguments are flawed because you are focused on only one particular segment of the demand market --- individual consumers, and also on one particular facet of the consumer market, which is personal electronics.
Those are not the only markets and people are not the only consumers of goods. Governments are consumers. So are militaries, and philanthropic groups, and also other businesses and industries.
If I needed $6 Million to set up and run a parts manufacturing and distribution center with the government, military and business/industry as consumers where do I get $6 Million?
Same story. The government will not give it to me, and neither will the banks. I will have to get that money from the "rich."
Your economy is growing, therefore you cannot be in a recession. A successful economy is not necessarily dependent on whether people have money or not.
Well, this guy had a different take on what makes for a successful economy:
"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
- Adam Smith
And that happens to be my take as well. But then, you could argue that a successful economy may not be about a flourishing/happy society. We will still disagree. Having said that, we also disagree for a good reason.
I see recessions, shrinkage in economy and jobs, a result of reduced demand, not rich people ceasing to exist.
Mircea, There is a problem using things like the Internet, the World Wide Web and the MP-3 as examples of capitalist creativity in technology because they are not. All of these were invented and devoloped in Government paid for and operated laboratories or on government contracts. The Internet was invented by the US military that needed to solve the proble of how to communicate with its surviving Forces in a nuclear war. The WWW was created at CERN to sent large amounts of data to hundreds of labs and universities in the partner and associate nations. The MP-3 format and the basic chip set needed for MP-3 recording and playback was invented in Germany. The MP in MP-3 stands for the organization that did the work the Max Planck Society or in German Max Planck Gessellschaft (MPG). These are better examples of what can be done by working together in a collective effort to solve problems at the cutting edge of human endevour. This is the very best of SOCIALISM!
Socialism is a tried and failed model. Never worked right and never will. It hinders creativity and efficiency. It motivates people to be the lazy parasites of the society.
Your argument is so flawed that I don't even know where to start. If I follow the same logic, the ones who invented language probably should take all the credits of everything else.
Had NASA been run by entrepreneurs, we would have settled on Mars already provided if there's such demand for it.
People or government may invent something but ultimately it's the entrepreneurs and rich investors who bring them to the market and consumers (individuals and businesses) by taking a lot of personal risks and putting up a lot of effort.
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Just like any other business, the owner pays himself a salary from the venture capital firm. The discussion is on raising personal income taxes for the wealthy--not corporate taxes.
