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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,373,658 times
Reputation: 40731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big George
I'd ask of you, simply, to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Very very few Christians, for instance, are members of the Westboro Baptist Church. And those who are might not actually be Christians (little Christs)...
Oh, I don't think I throw out the baby with the bathwater, I'm simply of the belief that there are forces in the universe no mere mortal truly understands, and that includes those who would stand before me and tell me they do.
I have yet to hear a rational explanation of how anyone decided the Bible is an accurate account, merely saying "I believe it is" isn't remotely close to being a rational explanation.
Hear it from where? An internet forum? There are severla books explaining the accuracy of the Bible - if you seek, then you shall find. Have you been seeking this out? Can you understand why I am skeptical about your commitment to acquiring knowledge when you say things like "I have yet to hear a rational explanation"? How come people who are so grounded in science and peer-reviewed research are so lazy when it comes to theological research? I don't expect someone on an internet forum to explain things about physics and biology to me - but apparently i am supposed to teach you everything about the Bible? Nuh-uh - it doesnt' work that way - go to a library and do your own research, or go to a church.
I'm sorry Charles, but I not only provided one example, I provided several. How many more would you like?
Did you? I must have missed them.
In any case I asked only for one: a forced conversion by missionaries of the Catholic Church in the Americas. Simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big George
Here's my (again) response to your Original Post: I wholeheartedly agree that it would be wonderful to have every single person in government be a TRUE Christian - yes, I'll even go with Nicene Creed affirming Christians. Christians that truly understand their faith and LIVE it, are exemplary people! But the caveat of this proposition is that there MUST be freedom of religion. Period. Jesus did not force people to follow him, and neither can we.
Wow, you would go much further than I would! Every single person in government? Really? That makes my proposal look almost moderate.
I don't even require that office holders be exemplary Christians: just ordinary sinners is fine with me.
Sounds like you're setting up a false dilemma, an "all or nothing" scenario: either everyone in government is a perfect Christian or forget the whole thing.
As for freedom of religion, of course I do agree with that, but there will necessarily be limits. Just as there are limits on religious freedom today due to the establishment of Secularism.
Obviously an oath for office-holders wouldn't fix everything, nor would it make the country "wonderful", but it would help set the tone and a new direction, it would help re-orient policies towards that which pleases God and which, at least, don't egregiously offend Christian moral precepts.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,373,658 times
Reputation: 40731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier
Hear it from where? An internet forum? There are severla books explaining the accuracy of the Bible - if you seek, then you shall find. Have you been seeking this out? Can you understand why I am skeptical about your commitment to acquiring knowledge when you say things like "I have yet to hear a rational explanation"? How come people who are so grounded in science and peer-reviewed research are so lazy when it comes to theological research? I don't expect someone on an internet forum to explain things about physics and biology to me - but apparently i am supposed to teach you everything about the Bible? Nuh-uh - it doesnt' work that way - go to a library and do your own research.
So far, the only thing I see in your posts is you believe because you believe, fine for you, meaningless to me.
Maybe it's due to being raised RC but I heard more than enough obvious BS in 'Catechism' classes as a child to permanently drive me away.
Predictable, tiresome, and refuted many times over.
There is a reason that religious tolerance only emerged on the world scene in Christian lands. You might want to look into that:
"Christian freedom combined and transformed the elements of barbaric freedom and classical citizenship into something new.... This sense of Christian liberty... was diffused throughout the whole body of Christendom and formed the spiritual background which from an external point of view often appears extremely hierarchic and authoritarian. In Eastern Europe, owing largely to the Oriental imperialisms, to which it was so long subjected, this background was so far removed from political realities that the Christian social consciousness expressed itself in mystical or apocalyptic terms. In the West, however, the social order was more plastic and more organically related to the beliefs and ideals of the people. In fact, no civilization, not even that of ancient Greece, has ever undergone such a continuous and profound process of change as Western Europe has done during the last 900 years. It is impossible to explain this fact in purely economic terms by a materialistic interpretation of history. The principle of change has been a spiritual one and the progress of Western civilization is intimately related to the dynamic ethos of Western Christianity, which has gradually made Western man conscious of his moral responsibility and his duty to change the world."
By going out and exploiting, enslaving, plundering and massacring non-Christians and non-Europeans across the planet for much of the past 500 years. All based on the belief that they and they alone were divinely chosen by God to have dominion over the planet.
I guarantee that atheists have been and will be holding office everywhere. They are everywhere. You may know them as christians though. Too bad you can't tell what someone really thinks ehh?
Would you be willing to explain was was going on in Spain during the Post-Reconquista Era, when Sepherdic Jews and Mudejar Muslims were given the choice of Baptism or death?
You are rewriting history at your convenience. The choice was between conversion or expulsion, not death.
Was Texas in 1961 ruled by the Christian Taliban? America in 1950? How about 1865? Pennsylvania in 1790? Why do you despise your own country's heritage?
Here's the reality: Official recognition of God - and even preference for the precepts of the Christian religion - is far more consistent with America's historic values and national experience than the radical secularism you falsely claim is mandated by the Constitution.
If YOU want to recognize God then take you *ss to church.
There are a substantial number of Americans that are just plain tired of self righteous, bigoted, and hateful people running around calling themselves Christians that want to impose your beliefs on others.
The fact you want legal power to impose your faith on others simply means you've lost your argument, on logical, rational, compassionate and I daresay even moral grounds. You can longer appeal to people to make them WANT TO follow your beliefs so therefore you feel compelled to make them HAVE TO believe what you do.
You apparently don't know much about the history of this country's founding. If you think the Founding Fathers' beliefs resembled anything pawned off as "Christianity" these days, you're sorely mistaken.
Unfortunately there is a tremendous amount of mythology around the whole issue of "God" and America. It's was one of the reason that the Indians were virtually exterminated and Africans were enslaved. People thought they were "heathens" and thus had no right to be treated as human beings.
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