Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Interesting points, my question is: What is your plan for enforcing this without reducing people's freedom? I'm not for any plan that involves the government imposing social laws.
For the record, I'm not for government enforcing access to women. If anything, we need to hold people accountable for their choices instead of only giving "social bailouts" that financially incentivize more of the same behavior. Removing the "easy money" incentives from government and the child support systems are two options, if you make people work for that government check or equalize custody to remove the child support component.
Oh I should be clear I would advocate self enforced cultural norms over any government intrusion. One thing government can do though is to stop subsidizing detrimental behavior ie cut off welfare or drastically retool it.
Closing the gap is much different than completely outpacing the men. Even if the gap is completely closed, that simply means the men and women are on a level financial field. I don't see how that is a negative, unless one is of a traditional male breadwinner mindset.
Please define "class". I know people like to use AA women's college degrees as an automatic class elevating tool. These men and women are coming out of the same neighborhoods. Having a college degree does not automatically make a person of a higher class. I've seen this in my own life, with college graduates in my family, acquaintances and people I've worked with who still have a ghetto mindset.
Very good point. But these women should expand their options (ie date other races) instead of wallowing and complaining about the so called "black male shortage". Once again I'll pose that most of these women complaining are older women, younger AA women aren't complaining about a shortage because they have the pick of the litter.
Additionally, we need to get to the root causes of why these men are unemployed, incarcerated, etc. It's not because of "racism" because somehow the women aren't being incarcerated at the same rates. Racism doesn't make someone pick up a gun, or use drugs, or sell drugs, or avoid college. Social advantages create these behaviors, and both men AND women play a role in these social advantages by uplifting men who exhibit these behaviors while denigrating those who are going down the positive path, at least in their youth. (See the "acting white" issue).
Women need to choose wisely while they are young, before they are stuck with kids, baggage and the decent men are taken.
First, we need to debunk this myth of so many educated African-American women out there who can't find a man. This is a very small part of the population. Most AA women don't have any sort of degree, even though I am proud of the gains that have been made over the last 40 years.
In regards to your point, these women need to readjust their standards. Being a blue collar man doesn't automatically equal unsuitable. I don't get this standard of having a college degree as being the only suitable mate. Finally, there are many men who aren't blue collar yet don't have a degree (office workers, entrepreneurs, etc).
If you clicked on the link, you would have seen the rate for African-American men with non-black spouses of any race is 10.8%. You are quoting a figure that is double the true rate.
The marriage stats don't back up this claim. I know people internalize the media images, with athletes and famous AA men marrying out, yet 89.2% of AA men marry AA women. There's no dating stats I'm aware of, and maybe you live in an interracial friendly area, but just visit any dating website that shows preferences you can anecdotally see that most non-black women exclude AA men, not prefer.
Even this is not even true. I used to work at a restuarant in NYC frequented by lots of athletes most of their spouses of Black athletes were Black. I'm not one to make a big deal about interracial marriages per se but it is a factor in regards to this issue simply because black men are more likely to marry outside of their race than black women. A similar phemonen exists in the Asian American community where Asian women are more likely than Asian men to marry outside of their race or cultural group.
Why do people like you have to constantly reminded!!!...
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. I'm not trying to be funny, I just think you left a word or two out of this sentence so I can't understand what angle you're coming from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmark
while some posters may come off as groveling boot lickers for white people, they aren't!!!
I'm not understanding what you're saying here either. Please elaborate so I can give an accurate reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmark
They just want to remind us black people that for our own good, we as a majority must stop being thugs, criminals, players, dead beat fathers, pimps, dope pushers, forgers, pick pockets, grifters, con men, mercenaries, robbers,etc,etc,etc..........
And my job is to counter those points with facts and statistics. The criticisms won't go away by just giving up and ignoring it or by attacking the posters. Instead of calling people "racist", I'd rather counter them with facts and see how the respond to it.
75% of "us" are doing just fine, yes 25% are in poverty, but that is not a majority. Less than 5% are criminals, and it would be much less if we got rid of drug war policies and adopted the Portuguese model towards drugs or the "safer / cleaner / legal" approach.
Oh I should be clear I would advocate self enforced cultural norms over any government intrusion. One thing government can do though is to stop subsidizing detrimental behavior ie cut off welfare or drastically retool it.
Good, then we agree on the policy aspect.
The self enforced cultural norms haven't worked because government policies have enabled the negative cultural norms. We have to change government policies if we want to see a change. That requires either revamping the programs to a workfare system or simply letting people fail.
I'm for workfare with job training within in-demand fields, with partially subsidized child care and required birth control as part of the acceptable of subsidized child care.
Even this is not even true. I used to work at a restuarant in NYC frequented by lots of athletes most of their spouses of Black athletes were Black. I'm not one to make a big deal about interracial marriages per se but it is a factor in regards to this issue simply because black men are more likely to marry outside of their race than black women. A similar phemonen exists in the Asian American community where Asian women are more likely than Asian men to marry outside of their race or cultural group.
You're right! Note, I didn't say the majority of athletes wives were non-black. I'm talking about media images and what people assume about interracial marriage stats based on those images.
If African-American women are less likely to marry out, that's a personal decision and we can't do anything about that, besides attempting to influence cultural attitudes towards marrying non-black men. Either way, 90% of AA men marry AA women, and the interracial marriage gap is only 6%, can that really be considered a huge factor?
I'm aware of the Asian woman statistics but I have no issues with any person marrying out. I think it's best for the future of society if we are intermarried anyway. It's hard to be racist when people of the race you hate are mixed in your blood.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. I'm not trying to be funny, I just think you left a word or two out of this sentence so I can't understand what angle you're coming from.
I'm not understanding what you're saying here either. Please elaborate so I can give an accurate reply.
And my job is to counter those points with facts and statistics. The criticisms won't go away by just giving up and ignoring it or by attacking the posters. Instead of calling people "racist", I'd rather counter them with facts and see how the respond to it.
75% of "us" are doing just fine, yes 25% are in poverty, but that is not a majority. Less than 5% are criminals, and it would be much less if we got rid of drug war policies and adopted the Portuguese model towards drugs or the "safer / cleaner / legal" approach.
If you (or anyone else) wants to enlighten me, or at least add the words that were missing from that first sentence, I'd appreciate it. Even at this point I'm not sure if you agreed or disagreed with what I posted.
Why don't you blame the women? They are just as at fault as the men are, if not more.
Let's look at history and see what changed after 1960, when 80% of African-American children were born in a married, intact household.
-The approval of the first birth control pill in 1960. (Female choice, free pass to have sex without consequences for both sexes, but women are the gatekeepers of sex)
-The sexual revolution of the '60s that ensued as a result of birth control.
(Female choice as the gatekeepers to have sex with any attractive man instead of choosing decent, responsible suitors. Those who don't use birth control and don't believe in abortion get stuck with absent fathers. Men share blame for not wearing condoms).
-The Great Society programs of the '60s that required the man out of the home for public assistance.
(Female choice to remove of the father figure in poor households in exchange for government money. End result is generations of women growing up without a father to screen and chase away irresponsible suitors, or teach their sons how to treat women.)
-The legality of abortion in 1973. "A woman's right to choose".
(Female sole choice: Even though it is the #1 killer of African-American people each year, I believe many women back out at the last minute and birth children into poverty. Having this option (even if they back out) is another perceived "safety net" for irresponsible sex with unscreened and irresponsible suitors.)
-The drug war: The only real male decision in what contributes to the fatherhood problem.
(Most men who are incarcerated or have records are due to this aspect. Drugs should be legalized and safer, regulated versions should be created by pharmaceutical companies and sold in drugstores. This would take the profit aspect out of drug dealing and reduce crime in poor neighborhoods.)
Yes, there are men who took advantage of this new sexually free society, but women are the gatekeepers of sex. They determine if they get pregnant and if they remain pregnant or if they give the baby up for adoption, not men. Since the topic of this thread is about fathers, NO man born after 1973 would be a father today if a woman decided she wasn't ready to be a mother. Men's only other fault in the single mother epidemic is their inability to use protection. Women aren't using protection AND are unilaterally deciding to keep the baby even if the child will be raised in poverty.
Hot diggity damn had to rep this right here. I hate to come off as a defeatist but I just do not see how we undo 40 years worth of social programming.
Hot diggity damn had to rep this right here. I hate to come off as a defeatist but I just do not see how we undo 40 years worth of social programming.
Thanks, brooklyn, good to see you around and posting on the TBM forum.
People are surprisingly adaptable. It took about 10-20 years for these factors to show up in the statistics. Remove incentives for negative behaviors, and 10-20 years later people will adapt and we'll be on a better path.
I'm somewhat of a defeatist too, but as a student of history, facts have proven to me that major societal changes occur constantly.
If you (or anyone else) wants to enlighten me, or at least add the words that were missing from that first sentence, I'd appreciate it. Even at this point I'm not sure if you agreed or disagreed with what I posted.
It was a round about attack on myself and other posters reconmark has a problem with. You see to him any criticism of Blacks means you're a racist or a self hating Black person.
Unfortunately he lacks the ability to debate those he disagrees with in the manner that you do. He resorts to name calling and emotionally charged arguments while offering little in the way of facts or furthering the debate.
As a rule I don't put people on ignore but if I did he'd be the first one on my list.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
