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Old 08-12-2012, 06:04 PM
 
72,837 posts, read 62,229,798 times
Reputation: 21789

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintgum84 View Post
Children out of wedlock is a sign typically associated with lower intelligence. IQ distributions show that for some populations, the curve is shifted leftwards. That does not mean there are not blacks 1 or even 2 SD above the norm, but on average, their IQs linger around 80.

I have never read that distribution ratios differ between races, only average intelligence. So 2.5% of blacks are likely to have IQs above 120 just as 2.5% of whites do (and all other groups), the issue is that the AVERAGE IQ of said population is drastically lower, resulting in broken families, bad grades, crime, social issues etc.

Read the Bell Curve. Tis a classic.
What is your point? Are you trying to argue that there is nothing that could be done for Black people? Are you suggesting that Blacks are somehow failed and can't get things together?

Blacks had much lower out of wedlock birth rates until the 1970s. Sounds alot more like a cultural change that occurred in the 70s.

As for The Bell Curve, you have to come up with a good reason to sell me on reading such a book. What do I, as a Black American, who just graduated from college, have to gain from that book, considering it is essentially saying that Blacks are somehow not intelligent enough to act civilized?
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:16 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,799,903 times
Reputation: 17472
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
What is your point? Are you trying to argue that there is nothing that could be done for Black people? Are you suggesting that Blacks are somehow failed and can't get things together?

Blacks had much lower out of wedlock birth rates until the 1970s. Sounds alot more like a cultural change that occurred in the 70s.

As for The Bell Curve, you have to come up with a good reason to sell me on reading such a book. What do I, as a Black American, who just graduated from college, have to gain from that book, considering it is essentially saying that Blacks are somehow not intelligent enough to act civilized?
Not only do you have any reason to read the book, but NO one has any reason to except to reinforce their own prejudice.

The Bell Curve has pretty well been shown to be very poor science.

Human Intelligence: The Bell Curve

Quote:
"Herrnstein and Murray rely heavily upon the work of Richard Lynn, whom they described as "a leading scholar of racial and ethnic differences", from whose advice they have "benefited especially". "
"I will not mince words. Lynn's distortions and misrepresentations of the data constitute a truly venomous racism, combined with scandalous disregard for scientific objectivity.
Quote:
"The confusion between correlation and causation permeates the largest section of The Bell Curve, an interminable series of analyses of data gathered from the National Longitudinal Survey of Labor Market Experience of Youth (NLSY). Those data, not surprisingly, indicate that there is an association within each race between IQ and socioeconomic status (SES). Herrnstein and Murray labor mightily in an effort to show that low IQ is the cause of low SES, and not vice versa. Their argument is decked out in all the trappings of science a veritable barrage of charts, graphs, tables, appendices, and appeals to statistical techniques that are unknown to many readers. But on close examination, this scientific emperor is wearing no clothes." (p. 90)
"Herrnstein and Murray pick over these data, trying to show that it is overwhelmingly IQ not childhood or adult SES that determines worldly success and the moral praiseworthiness of one's social behaviors. But their dismissal of SES as a major factor rests ultimately on the self-reports of youngsters. That is not an entirely firm basis. I do not want to suggest that such self-reports are entirely unrelated to reality. We know, after all, that children from differing social class backgrounds do indeed differ in IQ; and in the NLSY study the young peoples' self-reports are correlated with the objective facts of their IQ scores. But comparing the predictive value of those self-reports to that of quantitative test scores is playing with loaded dice." (p. 91)
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:31 PM
 
72,837 posts, read 62,229,798 times
Reputation: 21789
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Not only do you have any reason to read the book, but NO one has any reason to except to reinforce their own prejudice.

The Bell Curve has pretty well been shown to be very poor science.

Human Intelligence: The Bell Curve
In short, their study was not only based on someone else's flawed science, and they have yet to prove that IQ is the cause of problems in the Black community, but they also have ignored the possibility of any other issues, historical, cultural, and societal. In short, it was a biased study.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:30 PM
 
30,873 posts, read 36,804,277 times
Reputation: 34451
Quote:
Originally Posted by FancyFeast5000 View Post
Before the '60s the black community had the problems of crosses being burned in their front yard, voting, lynchings, Jim Crow laws, etc., etc. Did you say you missed American history classes when you were in school, or did you go to school prior to the '60s and the truth was not taught?
Yet, despite all this, the out of wedlock birth rate was much lower for blacks in the 1960s than it is now.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:50 PM
 
30,873 posts, read 36,804,277 times
Reputation: 34451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Factsplease View Post
All this "black people have to realize" talk is BS. Ignorant people who have no hope and live in poverty "need to realize". I am a black woman and I am not on welfare, I am not in prison, I take care of my kids and I work hard for a living. I am not a statistic. If you are concerned, talk to those who are - when you say things like "black people need to realize" you are speaking about an entire race of people as if we are all welfare recipient, criminals who have babies that we don't raise. Clearly a lot of black people know how to be productive upstanding citizens. Most of the ones that don't are not on this forum, so we find these statements offensive. If you care, do something about it. Otherwise stop making offensive remarks on discussion forums. It doesn't help anyone. What do you expect thos of us who take care of our children, work and obey the laws to do? It is your responsibility as much as it is ours.
I agree with you on what you're saying. I think the perception of many whites is that they don't see any self appointed black leaders saying very much about the out of wedlock birth problem. This is definitely a problem with all races, but it is most acute among blacks, but so little is said about it among black leaders.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:02 PM
 
1,389 posts, read 1,309,499 times
Reputation: 287
AG gaston
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:10 PM
 
Location: where people are either too stupid to leave or too stuck to move
3,982 posts, read 6,670,779 times
Reputation: 3689
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
What is your point? Are you trying to argue that there is nothing that could be done for Black people? Are you suggesting that Blacks are somehow failed and can't get things together?

Blacks had much lower out of wedlock birth rates until the 1970s. Sounds alot more like a cultural change that occurred in the 70s.

As for The Bell Curve, you have to come up with a good reason to sell me on reading such a book. What do I, as a Black American, who just graduated from college, have to gain from that book, considering it is essentially saying that Blacks are somehow not intelligent enough to act civilized?
Off topic : Ive been reading your posts randomly and you are really smart! I think you'll find a good career in no time
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:21 PM
 
10,854 posts, read 9,275,820 times
Reputation: 3122
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
Yet, despite all this, the out of wedlock birth rate was much lower for blacks in the 1960s than it is now.

There were also fewer college educated Black Americans as a percentage of the overall population of Black Americans.

A higher poverty rate for Black Americans.

A smaller middle class as a percentage of the overall Black American population.

No Black American C.E.O's of Fortune 500 corporations, in fact, there were no senior level executives of Fortune 500 corporation.

You also failed to mention that the out of wedlock birth rate for White women was also lower in the 1960s.

I wonder why?
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:25 PM
 
1,389 posts, read 1,309,499 times
Reputation: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy View Post
There were also fewer college educated Black Americans as a percentage of the overall population of Black Americans.

A higher poverty rate for Black Americans.

A smaller middle class as a percentage of the overall Black American population.

No Black American C.E.O's of Fortune 500 corporations, in fact, there were no senior level executives of Fortune 500 corporation.

You also failed to mention that the out of wedlock birth rate for White women was also lower in the 1960s.

I wonder why?
But poverty was trending down well before lbj, bc folks left rural areas for the more vibrant industrial centers. There is still few black fortune 500 CEOs. White low rate pales in comparison to black.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:25 PM
 
10,854 posts, read 9,275,820 times
Reputation: 3122
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I'm all for personal responsibility. I've been championing that here on these forums. It starts at home. My point is that I don't think Al Sharpton is championing personal responsibility. I haven't heard him champion individual responsibility, and on topics like absentee fathers. Bill Cosby is concerned about the Black community. He cares. I think Bill Cosby would make a better leader. Just my personal view.
We need leaders who are going to acknowledge both that there is still systematic racism, and at the same time, acknowledge that issues like absentee fathers, high dropout rates, and black-on-black murders are major problems that need to be solved. Michael Nutter, mayor of Philadelphia, has said something about this.

What I meant by leaders is that the only time I ever hear anything from Al Sharpton is when a hate crime has been committed against Blacks.
My point is who gives a f**K if Al Sharpton is promoting personal responsibility?

You want a better life?

Make better choices and take responsibility for the choice you make.

Chances are if you need somebody to tell you this your problems in life are NOT going to solved by simply seeing Al Sharpton are any damn body else on TV on anywhere else telling you this.

The whole Black Americans needs leaders is pure bullsh**t.

The real issue is that more Black Americans NEED TO STOP BEING FOLLOWERS!
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