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Just how much influence does the Israeli lobby (AIPAC) have over United States foreign and domestic policy?
Everyone is familiar with the power of AARP, and the NRA as well as the insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies over getting legislation passed in Congress. The American Israeli Public Affairs Committee is now ranked as the second most influential lobby in the US.
I would encourage anyone who wants a more detailed academic analysis and debate of AIPAC and how it relates to US foreign policy. It shows a good deal about the power of the lobby and its connections to Christian evangelic circles.
Fascinating viewing, but as I said earlier, in fairness to protocol here, it would be advisable to start a new thread to fully discuss the film.
I will however say I was impressed with some of those interviewed, and share one small incident I myself experienced in Amsterdam regarding international politics and the way in which Israel is and was viewed. It was early 1970s, and one of the Dutch Ministers made a pro-Israeli comment. Oil stopped at Rotterdam. An embargo was set in motion. The country rallied behind the Minister. Windows were lite with Menora, and people wore the Star of David on their neck. This went on for days. Shops were empty of all items previously scarce during WWII. Secret arrangements were made, threats or not, between Germany and the Netherlands for oil to be sent underground at the risk of the loss of natural gas from the North Sea. We were in war-mode; no cars permitted to travel without bonafides. My partner worked for the Dutch government and therefore had this permission and ear closer to the Ministries.
Then it was over; all was normalised.
Why did this happen, you may wonder? 85% of the Dutch Jews were incincerated in WWII. In the 70s, 85% of the Dutch could and would not allow that collective national guilt to resurface or be repeated in reality or by extension.
Only Tony Judt remarks on the collective unconscious of holocaust history. It is something to examine closely in relation to who and to what extent international politics will be played out in the future.
First off, I thought it a little humorous that they used Richard Perle (aka the Prince of Darkness as he is known in Washington circles) to represent AIPAC's positions. Alan Dershowitz has far more tact and is just as direct.
I also noted Tony Judt's remarks of societal debts arising from past victimization of individual groups/persons and it reminded me of the book written by Norman Finkelstein titled the, "Holocaust Industry" which is as controversial today as when he wrote it but also pertains to the victim status of the Jewish peoples today. Finkelstein was recently denied tenure at Depaul University due to his controversial writings, which in itself is rather sad that we are at a place in history in America that even in academic circles, these discussions are so taboo.
I was also moved by some of the comments by Colin Powell's former chief of staff, who disagreed with portions of the Mershimer and Walt report but lauded the effort as accurate if not far reaching enough as it pertained to the run up for the invasion of Iraq and the famous speech given to the UN security council.
If nothing else, I have to give kudos to the Dutch for making such a balanced and well made piece. My German is as rusty as my Maygar, but I at least recognized the dialect. I bet it is still good enough to order a few pints though. :-)
Last edited by TnHilltopper; 09-23-2007 at 12:32 PM..
In terms of relevance, do you believe that AIPAC, via or in conjunction with the neocons, provoked the USA to go to war with Iraq?
Well first off, here is a quick clip with an interview with Paul O'Neil who was fired for disagreeing with President Bush's economic policies. He claims the plans to go to war with Iraq were first and foremost on the table even before 9-11 took place. There have been several others like Hersh and the New Yorker mag that have also stated similar assertions.
As to whether or not AIPAC brought pressure to bear on this White House, I would say definitely, but many lobbies bring pressure to bear to change or guide policies.
The neoconservatives that have been largely responsible for formulating the foreign policy of the United States since the latter part of the Reagan, Bush Sr., and Clinton administrations have many and deep ties to the AIPAC lobby but I don't believe they have been directly responsible for the invasion of Iraq. They did bring pressure to bear, without a doubt.
If you look at groups and think tanks of the neoconservatives, such as PNAC, AEI, and JINSA, as well as many other lesser knowns, you will clearly see their views on both Iraq and Iran, as well as the greater Middle East. The fact that these groups all have close relations with AIPAC would seem to suggest that there is a collusion merely for having the same focus.
AIPAC, unlike many groups that support the advancement of Jewish causes and the Jewish people here in America, AIPAC is much broader in scope as it is promoting the cause of a foreign government and that governments policies as well. If nothing else it should be listed as a foreign agent.
It was interesting who was included in the film, but I suspect a great deal of it depended upon who agreed, and not necessarily who was asked.
I don't believe that the Jewish lobby is at the root of US policy, but clearly it has influence. I would liken it to the HIV/AIDs advocates; smart people make good lobbists, and get things done. The AIDS advocates changed the face of medicine, and a Jewish lobby post-WWII would be equally effective.
Now I have my prejudices and biases, and my objective thinking to consider. I was a full blown Zionist until about 1982. And today, I still have the remnants of a holocaust survival syndrome to deal with both internally and externally.
Where my biases and objective thinking cross swords is at the juncture of protecting the existence of a Jewish state and objecting to the means by which Israeli is maintaining its present existence.
Just recently I spoke aloud to a dear friend, and said, "I believe that the hawkishness of the Israelis can be laid at the feet of the guilt at not fighting back in numbers in WWII."
As a young person, I was ignorant of what went on in the underground until about 1963. Although I went to an excellent school, the nuances of the war were omitted. Then I met two men, both living in the Netherlands, and both of whom operated outside the allied military. One was in the Dutch underground (he lost a leg) and was a physician. We worked together, and he gave me the first book that made me understand some of my own guilt and shame: Treblinka by Jean-Francois Steiner (Author), Terrence Des Pres (Introduction), Simone de Beauvoir (Preface).
The book changed my thinking, but it also encouraged me to read avariciously about what makes for a victim and the victimizer.
Perhaps we are playing out, in a grander arena than we realize, this fatal psychologic syndrome.
Now I have my prejudices and biases, and my objective thinking to consider. I was a full blown Zionist until about 1982. And today, I still have the remnants of a holocaust survival syndrome to deal with both internally and externally.
Where my biases and objective thinking cross swords is at the juncture of protecting the existence of a Jewish state and objecting to the means by which Israeli is maintaining its present existence.
I am also curious as to your thoughts on David Levy's comments and what I see is a growing Jewish sentiment (at least here in the US) to divest from the current view point of the pro-Zionist Jewish community.
I pointed out to another poster some time back on the large number of Orthodox and conservative Jewish peoples both here in America and abroad that are very much against Zionist ideology.
I look forward to hearing more on how your views have changed from a pro-Zionist view to something other, as I find this a quite fascinating subject of great importance considering the climate of the day.
I will have to watch the video again to comment on Daniel Levy. He left less an impression than some of the other speakers, but I am certain his POV is relevant to sabre-aged Israelis.
In context: I was raised by an Orthodox educated mother. Without voicing any particular view, I heard the silence she spoke in volumes. I also heard the derision of my Republican, and very un-Jewish father.
My pro-Zionist view changed over time, but begun with a visit to the Middle East, and then matured as I matured and continued to listen to my own inner voice and the harsh voices around me. My own maturity came when neither voice governed me, and observation and first-hand experience guided me to explore my own set of truths, and trust my own values.
But again, it is important to know I volunteered for two Israeli-led wars, the 6-day war and the Yom Kippur war. I was prepared to fight and to the death because my ancestors went to slaughter. This still lives within, a tearing conflict, always and at great odds against my scientifically trained, rational mind that is opposed to war, terrorism and apartheid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
I am also curious as to your thoughts on David Levy's comments and what I see is a growing Jewish sentiment (at least here in the US) to divest from the current view point of the pro-Zionist Jewish community.
I pointed out to another poster some time back on the large number of Orthodox and conservative Jewish peoples both here in America and abroad that are very much against Zionist ideology.
I look forward to hearing more on how your views have changed from a pro-Zionist view to something other, as I find this a quite fascinating subject of great importance considering the climate of the day.
Just how much influence does the Israeli lobby (AIPAC) have over United States foreign and domestic policy?
Everyone is familiar with the power of AARP, and the NRA as well as the insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies over getting legislation passed in Congress. The American Israeli Public Affairs Committee is now ranked as the second most influential lobby in the US.
I would encourage anyone who wants a more detailed academic analysis and debate of AIPAC and how it relates to US foreign policy. It shows a good deal about the power of the lobby and its connections to Christian evangelic circles.
First off, I thought it a little humorous that they used Richard Perle (aka the Prince of Darkness as he is known in Washington circles) to represent AIPAC's positions. Alan Dershowitz has far more tact and is just as direct.
I also noted Tony Judt's remarks of societal debts arising from past victimization of individual groups/persons and it reminded me of the book written by Norman Finkelstein titled the, "Holocaust Industry" which is as controversial today as when he wrote it but also pertains to the victim status of the Jewish peoples today. Finkelstein was recently denied tenure at Depaul University due to his controversial writings, which in itself is rather sad that we are at a place in history in America that even in academic circles, these discussions are so taboo.
I was also moved by some of the comments by Colin Powell's former chief of staff, who disagreed with portions of the Mershimer and Walt report but lauded the effort as accurate if not far reaching enough as it pertained to the run up for the invasion of Iraq and the famous speech given to the UN security council.
If nothing else, I have to give kudos to the Dutch for making such a balanced and well made piece. My German is as rusty as my Maygar, but I at least recognized the dialect. I bet it is still good enough to order a few pints though. :-)
I can tell you that the Israeli lobby is NOT as bad as the Chinese lobby and the George Soros lobby.
I despise ALL foreign lobby in our government. This should stop altogether. It is very angering. But the Chinese and Soros lobby is by far WAY worst than the Israeli lobby.
How can we, as a country, accept Chinese, Soros, Israeli (and probably Iranian very soon) CONTROLLING our politicians through campaign contributions??? Am I the only one angry at this??
I don't like domestic (US lobbying), but FOREIGN lobbying is UN-acceptable!!
Well first off, here is a quick clip with an interview with Paul O'Neil who was fired for disagreeing with President Bush's economic policies. He claims the plans to go to war with Iraq were first and foremost on the table even before 9-11 took place. There have been several others like Hersh and the New Yorker mag that have also stated similar assertions.
As to whether or not AIPAC brought pressure to bear on this White House, I would say definitely, but many lobbies bring pressure to bear to change or guide policies.
The neoconservatives that have been largely responsible for formulating the foreign policy of the United States since the latter part of the Reagan, Bush Sr., and Clinton administrations have many and deep ties to the AIPAC lobby but I don't believe they have been directly responsible for the invasion of Iraq. They did bring pressure to bear, without a doubt.
If you look at groups and think tanks of the neoconservatives, such as PNAC, AEI, and JINSA, as well as many other lesser knowns, you will clearly see their views on both Iraq and Iran, as well as the greater Middle East. The fact that these groups all have close relations with AIPAC would seem to suggest that there is a collusion merely for having the same focus.
AIPAC, unlike many groups that support the advancement of Jewish causes and the Jewish people here in America, AIPAC is much broader in scope as it is promoting the cause of a foreign government and that governments policies as well. If nothing else it should be listed as a foreign agent.
PNAC is not a think tank.
Israel's security gives the U.S. military a mission. It is amazing to see American evangelicals (fundamentalist Christians, remember) transformed into warmongers, but that is what has happened since 1967.
I will have to watch the video again to comment on Daniel Levy. He left less an impression than some of the other speakers, but I am certain his POV is relevant to sabre-aged Israelis.
In context: I was raised by an Orthodox educated mother. Without voicing any particular view, I heard the silence she spoke in volumes. I also heard the derision of my Republican, and very un-Jewish father.
My pro-Zionist view changed over time, but begun with a visit to the Middle East, and then matured as I matured and continued to listen to my own inner voice and the harsh voices around me. My own maturity came when neither voice governed me, and observation and first-hand experience guided me to explore my own set of truths, and trust my own values.
But again, it is important to know I volunteered for two Israeli-led wars, the 6-day war and the Yom Kippur war. I was prepared to fight and to the death because my ancestors went to slaughter. This still lives within, a tearing conflict, always and at great odds against my scientifically trained, rational mind that is opposed to war, terrorism and apartheid.
Zionism entails a religion-based rationale for ethnic hatred, killing, and forcible displacing of others. Join hands with Bin Laden, etc. The Jews show up in Palestine after WW1 with England's blessing to gain political hegemony after only being present in very small numbers since 1st century A.D. But of course they have a right to not just inhabit the land but to kick out everyone else already there. (they point to their Holy Book with its burning bush and the God who turns men into pillars of salt and drops fire on the sacrificial altars of competing gods - primitive mumbo-jumbo galore). That the Holocaust happened makes this even more OK than Mr Weizmann ever hoped. It never ends.
Last edited by ParkTwain; 09-23-2007 at 09:44 PM..
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