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Old 06-23-2012, 02:50 PM
 
1,922 posts, read 1,738,768 times
Reputation: 798

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke_Jaguar4 View Post
Yawn,
This is just a manufactured crisis. Nobody cares about this other than Right-wing koolaid drinkers. If Republicans get anywhere near the truth, then the NRA will pull their leash. Next topic...
Really?

Then why not co-operate completely and make the Republicans look foolish?

Why hide behind executive privilege?

You don't care if the Justice Dept. follows the law? What the hell is wrong with you? Do you care about the dead people in the wake of fast/furious?

You can't really believe the nonsense you posted.... can you?
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
37,644 posts, read 21,786,598 times
Reputation: 13586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_IA View Post
The left loves Holder and Obama because they care more about politics than law and order.
It's amazing to me, when everything can be so upside down, and people are fine with it as long as the folks in charge are democrats.

How long and loud did the dems scream about Bush and Halliburton, while ignoring the same policies under Clinton, and now 0bama.

We have 0bama engaging in hundreds of billions of dollars in real political and corporate cronyism, and the left is silent as a lamb.
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
37,644 posts, read 21,786,598 times
Reputation: 13586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_IA View Post
Really?

Then why not co-operate completely and make the Republicans look foolish?

Why hide behind executive privilege?

You don't care if the Justice Dept. follows the law? What the hell is wrong with you? Do you care about the dead people in the wake of fast/furious?

You can't really believe the nonsense you posted.... can you?
We are waiting patiently for those documents from Holder that will prove how guilty, incompetent and corrupt Bush was, for fast & Furious. Why are Holder and 0bama protecting Bush?
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Old 06-23-2012, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
11,157 posts, read 13,929,072 times
Reputation: 14935
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABAZZ310 View Post
Have you served?
This question is irrelevant. I raise valid points about the character flaws evident in many of your posts, and question your ability to impartially consider the Fast and Furious issue as a result of these flaws. Questioning whether or not I have served is a weak and feeble attempt to avoid addressing my questions.

For the benefit of other posters, the answer to this question is, "Yes." In fact, I am currently on year 13 of my career in the Marines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABAZZ310 View Post
Do you believe whistle blowers are the same as people leaking classified information for political reasons?
A whistle blower is someone who raises an objection to an illegal activity. It is not the same thing as leaking classified information. In fact, (since you want to talk military service) one of the many duties I've had in the military is security manager. One thing that you learn about classified material is that it cannot be misused to cover up illegal activity. So our whistle blower has not committed a crime. Holder trying to prosecute the whistler blower (this thread is a couple weeks old, so it's probably OBE anyway) is not going to fly. Holder being prosecuted...that is a likelihood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABAZZ310 View Post
How do you feel about that private who leaked that classified information to Wikileaks? Your attitude towards this is not surprising. Your judgment is clouded by personal feelings… Take in the facts and then make a decision in that order. Don’t remain blinded because of your hate for the current administration…
The private leaked classified information. Prosecute him. That one is a no-brainer. As for hating the current administration, I once again challenge you to find (and I mean quote me) posts which demonstrate hate. You've accused me of hate and racism several times now, and several times I have challenged you to use my exact words against me. Each time you have chosen not to do so. And I know why: because you can't.

Nonetheless, I'll renew my challenge to you once again. Be specific. QUOTE me saying something racist or hateful. None of this arbitrary and general "oh it's just obvious in what you say..." That pretty much equates to "I don't like that IKF disagrees with me so I am going to call him a hater and racist." Intellectual laziness.
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,624 posts, read 19,044,948 times
Reputation: 21733
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Serious.....I can't write Ash....croft?
No, and I have no idea why that is so.

I've written extensively about Bush's war crimes and used, uh, you know, the former Attorney General's (whose name we cannot write) own written letters to debunk his own claims. And yes, the posts look really silly with all of those asterisks in them.

Commiserating...

Mircea
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:48 PM
 
276 posts, read 235,405 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapasha View Post
We are waiting patiently for those documents from Holder that will prove how guilty, incompetent and corrupt Bush was, for fast & Furious. Why are Holder and 0bama protecting Bush?
Excellent. If there was any damning evidence against Bush in regards to Fast and Furious, they would have long ago been made public and broadcast nightly on the slobbering media.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:00 PM
 
1,922 posts, read 1,738,768 times
Reputation: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRisingAgain View Post
Excellent. If there was any damning evidence against Bush in regards to Fast and Furious, they would have long ago been made public and broadcast nightly on the slobbering media.
no doubt about it.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,624 posts, read 19,044,948 times
Reputation: 21733
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABAZZ310 View Post
Have you served?
Yes, and I'm disabled because of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABAZZ310 View Post
Do you believe whistle blowers are the same as people leaking classified information for political reasons?
Yes, because the reality is that at that level, there is no distinction.

You cannot separate politics from government, any more than you can separate government from politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABAZZ310 View Post
How do you feel about that private who leaked that classified information to Wikileaks?
I wanna have his baby.

If it were up to me, he would already have high schools in each State named after him, a big bronze statue in every city, a marble edifice in Washington DC, and his likeness carved on Mount Rushmore, just for starters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABAZZ310 View Post
Your attitude towards this is not surprising. Your judgment is clouded by personal feelings… Take in the facts and then make a decision in that order. Don’t remain blinded because of your hate for the current administration…
My attitude is based on Truth & Reality.

Unlike you, I have read and handled several thousand pages of documents classified Secret or Top Secret as a matter of course for the various duties I performed.

Unlike you, I'm intelligent enough to recognize that there is huge distinction between National Security and National Embarrassment.

Unlike you, my moral compass and ethical position does not allow me to abuse the document classification system, and classify documents under the false pretense of "National Security" when the real issue is avoiding "National Embarrassment."

Unlike you, I know that the US government classified nuclear weapons testing on US soil not for matters of National Security, but for matters of National Embarrassment, in particular, to avoid paying disability benefits to veterans who were exposed ionizing radiation as part of nuclear weapons testing, and to avoid paying damages to US citizens who were injured by fallout from nuclear weapons testing -- like those residents of New Jersey.

Unlike you, I know that the US government classified its illegal, unethical and immoral radiation testing program at Cincinnati General Hospital (now University Hospital) not for reasons of National Security, but for reasons of National Embarrassment -- because the government did not want to admit it engaged in illegal, immoral and unethical radiation experiments and did not wish to compensate the patients who unwittingly participated as guinea pigs or their families.

Unlike you, I know that the US government classified its illegal, unethical and immoral medical experiments on Black men with syphilis, and also on groups of people in Nicaragua and Guatemala with syphilis, because the government wanted to be spared from embarrassment and hide the fact that what it was doing was illegal, unethical and immoral, nor did it want to compensate the victims and their families.

Shall I continue?

Because I can do this all f*****g day long for the next 3 months.

My knowledge is infinitely superior to yours regarding matters of document classification.

Would you like to discuss nuclear weapons security? Would you like to discuss the fact that your government paid in excess of $140 Million for a security system that didn't work --- and it was classified, not for reasons of National Security, but in order to spare the government, and lots of idiots in the government the embarrassment of having to answer questions like, "How could you be so goddam stupid as to spend that kind of money to purchase a security system.....when you knew in advance that it did not work and had never worked."

I told them. I wrote an evaluation on it. So did others. Over twenty officers, senior enlisted and a couple of (DA) civilian government employees condemned the system, and objected to its purchase, and they bought it anyway.

To get your hands on a nuclear warhead, you needed only a piece of cardboard 1" wide, 1/4" thick and at least 4" in length....and you could defeat their $140 Million pile of scrap metal and get a nuke.

Some idiot in the Reagan Administration told Reagan there weren't any "back-pack nukes" in Germany, so Reagan (at a televised press conference) tells the whole freaking world there aren't any back-packs in Germany....except there are 226 of them.

And now we have to jump through hoops and pull out our hair to find a way to get all 226 back-pack nukes out of Germany, before someone finds out they are still there, and without anyone knowing that we are taking them out.

Yeah...get it? How do you get back-pack nukes out of Germany without the Germans knowing?

How do you get back-pack nukes out of Germany with the whole world watching your every step...literally. All of the anti-nuke pukes from Canada, US, Britain, Australia, Russia, Germany, and every other freaking country on Planet Earth was watching us because of the Pershing IIs and GLCMs. Every suspected "nuclear facility" in NATO was watched by a crowd at the gates with cameras and videos.

Nuclear weapons missions are classified routinely as a matter of course at the Secret level. These missions were classified Top Secret. Why? For reasons of National Security? No, to spare the government embarrassment.

We got them out after a nice psy-ops warfare campaign, and using some deception/misdirection.

You still have documents related to Pearl Harbor classified Top Secret Cosmic. Why? National Security? No, National Embarrassment. Those documents will be/should be reviewed for declassification at the 75 year mark which would be 2022. I'm not real clear on that. Truman changed the system around 1947-1948 and everything was re-classified under the new system implemented then.

75 years from 1947 would be 2022, but it would be 2023 from 1948.

There's something in those documents your government is afraid to let you see. It has nothing to do with National Security, and everything to do with National Embarrassment -- namely the fact that your government knew the Japanese fleet was enroute to Pearl Harbor.

There are still 100,000 pages of documents from the Kennedy Assassination still classified Top Security Cosmic. They were classified in 1964, so they are scheduled for review in 2039. National Security? No, National Embarrassment. There's something in those documents that your government doesn't want you to know, and it had/has no bearing then or now on National Security.

Communiques between Glaspie and DC. Classified in 1991 Top Secret Cosmic. Scheduled for review in the year 2066. Why? National Security? No, National Embarrassment.

I reviewed the bulk of the Wikileak documents when they came out. They're on my laptop right now. Not one of those documents was a matter of National Security. It was all National Embarrassment. I challenged people then -- show me a document that relates to National Security. I'm still waiting for someone to show me even one document.

Obama's illegal overthrow of the Honduran government is a matter of National Security? Wrong.

Obama was wrong and it has nothing to do with National Security and everything to do with Chiquita stocks, and abusing the system to spare him embarrassment is wrong.

Billary is illegally gathering bio-metric data on diplomats in direct violation of the Vienna Treaty?

She is wrong, and classifying documents in order to cover up her illegal, immoral and unethical acts is wrong, and it is an abuse of the document classification system.

We've been through this before with the Pentagon Papers. Nothing in those documents was even remotely related to National Security, and we can thank a federal judge who was smart enough to see through the government's deception and abuse and put the government in its place.

I see Wikileaks as the exact same thing -- seeing through the government's deception and abuse and putting the government in its place. If a federal judge lacks the moral courage and personal integrity to uphold the Constitution and do that, then I'm glad a Private in the US Army did.

I will now pose my usual dare that everyone on this forum thus far has refused to answer with any explanation:

If the documents Private Bradley leaked discussed plans to illegally arrest and detain Americans who "dissented" or were critical of the government in secret camps, would you still refer to Bradley as a traitor?

If you answer "No" to the question then you have exposed yourself as an hypocrite.

If you answer "Yes" then you have revealed that you have no moral compass, that your ethics are purely situational, and worse than that, you are less than human and not worthy of life on Earth.

Serving...


Mircea
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Midwest
38,496 posts, read 25,675,675 times
Reputation: 10789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke_Jaguar4 View Post
Yawn,
This is just a manufactured crisis. Nobody cares about this other than Right-wing koolaid drinkers. If Republicans get anywhere near the truth, then the NRA will pull their leash. Next topic...
Especially since fast and furious started under the Bush administration in 2006.

Quote:
The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona.

Quote:
At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:57 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 2,856,548 times
Reputation: 1547
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
Especially since fast and furious started under the Bush administration in 2006.





ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obviously you didn't read this. You really should.

If you had, you would know some very fundamental differences in the operations, number one being that Mexican authorities were involved in Bush's program but not in Obama's. You should note that one of the reasons the program was ENDED under Bush was that the Mexican authorities were losing track of the guns.

Under Obama, Mexican authorities weren't even part of the equation. Do you see a difference there? These guns weren't crossing state lines, they were crossing a soverign border without permission. Do you see a difference?

The article was written showing very distinct differences and showed when one ended and another started. They are not the same! You should read your own links. And Wiki? Can't any one post on there? Looks to me like it was just updated today.

These are THE VERY REASONS this needs to move forward. This administration took a failed program and made it worse. If it isn't investigated will it come back again under a different name?

Last edited by Isitmeorarethingsnuts?; 06-23-2012 at 09:00 PM.. Reason: was to were
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