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Old 06-11-2012, 01:58 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 3,726,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
My point being one you brought up, of people's religious freedom. Why should religious leaders present a case for an individual's freedoms, complete with threats? We must disagree on the premise of freedoms based on individualism (mine) versus collectivism (yours).

Vatican Reprimands US Nuns

Freedoms, my foot. Hence the quote...

"I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?"
- Barry Goldwater
In what way does the Church's stance on the HHS mandate impair individual religious liberty?
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
44,882 posts, read 33,209,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Yes I'm biased. And glad to be, against all the foolishness and stupidity y'all stand for. I couldn't care less about anybody backing MY words. That your words can't stand on their own is your weakness, not a strength.

Now, why should government make special provisions to a religion when it comes to civil matters? The government is to respect personal freedoms, give THEM the choices, not some idiotic leadership defining a collective.
Now that was among your most ridiculous, the use of the word collective in that statement. I refuse to be pushed into a collective by the government that tried to ram abortion down the throat if the Church. Yep, that word brings up images of the Soviet collective way of living and I didn't like it then and sure as hell don't now.

The One did announce to us that public money would never be used for abortion and then he tried to pull that trick last spring on the Catholic Church. If his law isn't allowed to stand by the SC after his threat against them I guess this will all be history, huh.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,767,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMe View Post
In what way does the Church's stance on the HHS mandate impair individual religious liberty?
The church is taking over individual's personal choice. Was that too hard to comprehend?
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Well Roy, that is something YOU do all the time but you surely have a habit of pointing fingers at everybody else.
How do you know how I practice my Christian beliefs? Do you really know who I am and how often I go to church? Darn, I sure failed to know about that till you told me.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Won't that put pretty much every catholic out of Catholicism, and the majority of those left would be their leaders?

Now, if you want to worship religious leaders and dance to their whims, continue doing so. Do not expect the rest of us to have an ounce of respect for you playing political games with it, however.
I still don't understand what political games are being played. The government is mandating that the Church as an institution do something that violates its beliefs and the Church is objecting on religious liberty grounds. Where is the game-playing in this?
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas View Post
First off it is not Your place to judge others, a Christian would know that.
Secondly it is a Lie, again Un-Christian by you, to claim anyone is trying to make the Church supply abortion on demand, birth control for business employees is not abortion, but it is the Law. So what is the problem if the Church is only hiring those that will abide by the teachings of the Church then none of their employees would ever use the pill. FYI, many already know that the ultimate goal of the right-to-lifers is not the end of abortion, but is in reality the end to all birth control, that is why you will never get the law overturned.
Is the morning after pill not a form of abortion just in case the wrong little cells got together? I guess you are ready to accept all of Obama's words about that part, huh. He said we won't force anyone to pay for the abortions of others and then tries to force the Catholic Church to do just that. In so doing he admitted that tax money would be used for abortion with more supplied for Planned Parenthood etc.

You sure do a good job of playing Polly the Parrot sometimes.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
He might. Or, he may not. People are individuals. Not everybody wants to dance at the whims of religious leaders like you do. If churches don't want government influence, they should get out of "business" of doing anything but exercising RELIGION.
And who gets to decide what "exercising RELIGION" is? Kathleen Sebillius?
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,767,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy View Post
Are you ready for a rant? Ok here it comes. Obama did promise us that public money would not be used for abortions before that law was passed.
Birth control = abortion? Yes, or no?

Quote:
the handwriting on the wall he came out with that attempt to force the Catholic Church to provide birth control, including day after abortions
So, church wants special laws written for self, even when it is engaging in business like everybody else?

Quote:
If they lay down and let him steamroll them then some other Christian church will be attacked using the same law and in no time he will have Christians backed into a corner.
Those would make for some pathetic Christian, demanding special laws based on religions. Should we also demand government to make similar provisions for EVERY religion, or just the Christians if not specific sect of it?

Quote:
You are smart enough to have seen all this but you do manage to look very silly arguing the Obama side of things. He did promise that, didn't he. No forcing of tax payers having to pay for abortion?
Well, at least I am smart enough to not suggest birth control = abortion. Are you? Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy View Post
Now that was among your most ridiculous, the use of the word collective in that statement. I refuse to be pushed into a collective by the government that tried to ram abortion down the throat if the Church. Yep, that word brings up images of the Soviet collective way of living and I didn't like it then and sure as hell don't now.
You sure love what you hate. But, that love appears to be involuntary but not surprising. Why must church decide everything for ALL individuals? THAT is collectivism. Obey the leadership!

Quote:
The One did announce to us that public money would never be used for abortion and then he tried to pull that trick last spring on the Catholic Church. If his law isn't allowed to stand by the SC after his threat against them I guess this will all be history, huh.
SC has not outlawed abortion in this country. Has it? You're demanding special laws being written for churches even when they engage in business. I'm opposed to it. What does US Constitution speak on the subject? That civil laws need not apply equally, and be based on collectivism on the grounds of religion? Or, is it all about giving the individual to be his/her own?
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,767,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMe View Post
And who gets to decide what "exercising RELIGION" is? Kathleen Sebillius?
No. The individual. Are 99% or so of Catholic women now not exercising religion because they've used birth control at some point in their lives? Perhaps you believe the Pope and Bishops must instead?

But, I'm glad you're asking questions. It is always a good way to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMe View Post
I still don't understand what political games are being played. The government is mandating that the Church as an institution do something that violates its beliefs and the Church is objecting on religious liberty grounds. Where is the game-playing in this?
What does the US Constitution say about laws and religion?
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:19 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 3,726,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
The church is taking over individual's personal choice. Was that too hard to comprehend?
Church employees could exercise their personal choice to purchase contraceptives before the HHS mandate and nothing has changed that. Please explain how the Church is curbing personal choice.
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