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Old 09-24-2007, 12:16 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,158,628 times
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They are pursing weapons programs that will reign down horror upon the people of this country, leaving in its wake, mushroom clouds and empty craters. We know they have them, all the evidence supports this. The IAEA inspectors are being misled and their conclusions are false, and their momma’s dress them funny.

Soon, we will be liberating them and they shall throw flowers at us and their oil will pay for it all… Sound familiar?

Yes, it is Iraq part II, also better known as the march to Iran.

How in Gods name can 300 million people be steered like cattle with but a few words from a government that most have been complaining has been lying or at the least, less than truthful to them but now hold what they say is somehow not only valid but in need of immediate action? A media that admitted it was wrong now turns once again to add the colored flashing graphics of the next march to war with but a single letter of the nation changed. I understand that America is the most heavily medicated country on planet earth, and even those that are not medicated either legally or otherwise, have completely erased the events of the past six years from their collective minds.

In the latest run up for our next war, the war party isn’t even bothering to find new material; they have become so lazy that they are recycling the very material they used for our first endeavor in Iraq. The same unidentified sources, the same media droning of suspected this, and potential terrorist links that. The same use of people exiled from their native lands as though they don’t hold a grudge or have some desperate knowledge that is amazingly only now just being revealed.

The same satellite pictures of buildings with little red circles and a line saying, “bad guys, WMD’s, Satan himself” is here. The same rumblings from our intelligence agencies and military over the validity of this evidence, the same authoritarian hubris from an administration that no longer cares for its own people as much as it cares about its own personal legacy.

I have watched American become polarized and partisan along political lines, and once again even racial lines, much to the joy and smiles of this current administration that stands to most benefit from a nation no longer unified or even at a consensus.

I stand by and watch as the madness repeats itself once again, not just by a Platonic government that feels divinely inspired but also by an entire nation of people who are so easily lured by shiny lead coated Barbie dolls from China on their Wal-mart shelves. By a country of millions of allegedly bright people wearing headphones listening to the latest ponzi scheme from the department of redundancy department while looking at the world through a straw.

Will people soon be saying the evidence to go war in Iran was bogus, misleading or that Congress should cut off funding for the troops in Tehran? Will it even matter then?

I happen to think my native country is broken at the moment but I also feel that we have some of the finest people in the world living here who actually do give a damn and understand the importance of their role in our system of government and in our society. All that is truly missing is action that takes place when one overcomes apathy.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. -Samuel Adams
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:49 PM
 
223 posts, read 602,910 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
They are pursing weapons programs that will reign down horror upon the people of this country, leaving in its wake, mushroom clouds and empty craters. We know they have them, all the evidence supports this. The IAEA inspectors are being misled and their conclusions are false, and their momma’s dress them funny.

Soon, we will be liberating them and they shall throw flowers at us and their oil will pay for it all… Sound familiar?

Yes, it is Iraq part II, also better known as the march to Iran.

How in Gods name can 300 million people be steered like cattle with but a few words from a government that most have been complaining has been lying or at the least, less than truthful to them but now hold what they say is somehow not only valid but in need of immediate action? A media that admitted it was wrong now turns once again to add the colored flashing graphics of the next march to war with but a single letter of the nation changed. I understand that America is the most heavily medicated country on planet earth, and even those that are not medicated either legally or otherwise, have completely erased the events of the past six years from their collective minds.

In the latest run up for our next war, the war party isn’t even bothering to find new material; they have become so lazy that they are recycling the very material they used for our first endeavor in Iraq. The same unidentified sources, the same media droning of suspected this, and potential terrorist links that. The same use of people exiled from their native lands as though they don’t hold a grudge or have some desperate knowledge that is amazingly only now just being revealed.

The same satellite pictures of buildings with little red circles and a line saying, “bad guys, WMD’s, Satan himself” is here. The same rumblings from our intelligence agencies and military over the validity of this evidence, the same authoritarian hubris from an administration that no longer cares for its own people as much as it cares about its own personal legacy.

I have watched American become polarized and partisan along political lines, and once again even racial lines, much to the joy and smiles of this current administration that stands to most benefit from a nation no longer unified or even at a consensus.

I stand by and watch as the madness repeats itself once again, not just by a Platonic government that feels divinely inspired but also by an entire nation of people who are so easily lured by shiny lead coated Barbie dolls from China on their Wal-mart shelves. By a country of millions of allegedly bright people wearing headphones listening to the latest ponzi scheme from the department of redundancy department while looking at the world through a straw.

Will people soon be saying the evidence to go war in Iran was bogus, misleading or that Congress should cut off funding for the troops in Tehran? Will it even matter then?

I happen to think my native country is broken at the moment but I also feel that we have some of the finest people in the world living here who actually do give a damn and understand the importance of their role in our system of government and in our society. All that is truly missing is action that takes place when one overcomes apathy.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. -Samuel Adams

I agree with many of your points, but I just don't feel the same march to war that happened with Iraq is now occuring with Iran. I have noticed that many people such such as yourself are seeing this, but I don't...what am I missing?

Other than the Iran/Iraq comparison, I agree...well written.

Steve
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:31 PM
 
5,762 posts, read 11,606,583 times
Reputation: 3869
The problem is, Iraq was a conventional, large-scale ground invasion. As such, it took quite a bit of coaxing and prep work. There were Congressional votes, presentations to the UN and other bodies, troop buildups, etc.

Iran would probably begin as an unannounced surprise series of airstrikes. This would tie the country to the mast and inevitably commit us to a wider war, since it is perfectly clear that Iran would respond to airstrikes by rocketing US bases in Iraq, perhaps killing hundreds or thousands of US troops.

And once that happens, a wider war would be phrased in terms of 'payback' for those losses in Iraq. From a public opinion stance, that's a very nearly irresistible rationale for lots more war, no matter how much it will plunge us into further debt, or complicate affairs in the mideast.

The thing is, Iraq was a neutered state by the time it was invaded in 2003. It had few, if any, foreign operatives in the west. Saddam was a paranoiac dictator whose own advisers lied to him about the condition of his army.

Iran is not quite so naive. They do have operatives around the globe, in multiple forms. State agents, Hezbollah operatives, spies, and so on.

It was a minor fear prior to the Iraq invasion that "Iraqi operatives" might retaliate by staging terrorist attacks in the US or elsewhere. That was never a credible threat, since Iraq lacked that capability.

We'd be naive to assume the same of Iran.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:00 PM
 
223 posts, read 602,910 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
The problem is, Iraq was a conventional, large-scale ground invasion. As such, it took quite a bit of coaxing and prep work. There were Congressional votes, presentations to the UN and other bodies, troop buildups, etc.

Iran would probably begin as an unannounced surprise series of airstrikes. This would tie the country to the mast and inevitably commit us to a wider war, since it is perfectly clear that Iran would respond to airstrikes by rocketing US bases in Iraq, perhaps killing hundreds or thousands of US troops.

And once that happens, a wider war would be phrased in terms of 'payback' for those losses in Iraq. From a public opinion stance, that's a very nearly irresistible rationale for lots more war, no matter how much it will plunge us into further debt, or complicate affairs in the mideast.

The thing is, Iraq was a neutered state by the time it was invaded in 2003. It had few, if any, foreign operatives in the west. Saddam was a paranoiac dictator whose own advisers lied to him about the condition of his army.

Iran is not quite so naive. They do have operatives around the globe, in multiple forms. State agents, Hezbollah operatives, spies, and so on.

It was a minor fear prior to the Iraq invasion that "Iraqi operatives" might retaliate by staging terrorist attacks in the US or elsewhere. That was never a credible threat, since Iraq lacked that capability.

We'd be naive to assume the same of Iran.
This sounds reasonable...however the only issue I see is the part where you seem to suggest that we sould need to sustain a certain number of casualties in order to garner support for the war...

I see the value in this, but why would they even care about public support at this point...I mean to the point where we would turn the other cheek after an airstrike and just let our interests in Iraq be bombed...

My guess would bet hat our military would at least try and lockdown Iraq (didn't I hear that a part of the Iran/Iraq border is being closed??) and erect some sort of Patriot missle shield to attempt to defend against Iran's missiles. However, from what i understand, iran has a lot more than some Scuds in their arsenal, including some Chinese made Sunburn missiles that can evede our early warning systems, etc.

Either way, if it happens, we are in WAY deeper than we are now, that's for sure.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
14,044 posts, read 27,143,074 times
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A couple of significant differences could alter the path. First off, Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait, kicking off the first war. In my view, that was legitimate. Second, there was an inspection process agreed to as part of the resolution of the first war, and Saddam played a lot of shell games with the inspectors, which turned into a form of instigation and provocation. Now, we can say he did it for multiple reasons, but the fact is that he did do this.

Neither situation exists with Iran.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:09 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,158,628 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlsteved View Post
I agree with many of your points, but I just don't feel the same march to war that happened with Iraq is now occuring with Iran. I have noticed that many people such such as yourself are seeing this, but I don't...what am I missing?

Other than the Iran/Iraq comparison, I agree...well written.

Steve
Well while it is certainly not yet on the scale of the lead up to the Iraq war, I know a dead carcass on a road when I smell one. What started out as subtle saber rattling is beginning to take on a familiar shape. My purpose with this piece is to recognize that there are so many striking similarities of the modus operandi as to make one take pause.

To quote former national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski, "I think the administration, the president and the vice president particularly, are trying to hype the atmosphere, and that is reminiscent of what preceded the war in Iraq," Brzezinski told CNN's "Late Edition" on Sunday.
Brzezinski: U.S. in danger of 'stampeding' to war with Iran - CNN.com

This view is also held by many former military and intelligence personnel as well as my own personal collection of several gig's worth of text and video that I have collected since just prior to Sept. 11th. To be honest, I hope and pray that I am complete wrong and off my rocker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
The problem is, Iraq was a conventional, large-scale ground invasion. As such, it took quite a bit of coaxing and prep work. There were Congressional votes, presentations to the UN and other bodies, troop buildups, etc.

Iran would probably begin as an unannounced surprise series of airstrikes. This would tie the country to the mast and inevitably commit us to a wider war, since it is perfectly clear that Iran would respond to airstrikes by rocketing US bases in Iraq, perhaps killing hundreds or thousands of US troops.

And once that happens, a wider war would be phrased in terms of 'payback' for those losses in Iraq. From a public opinion stance, that's a very nearly irresistible rationale for lots more war, no matter how much it will plunge us into further debt, or complicate affairs in the mideast.

The thing is, Iraq was a neutered state by the time it was invaded in 2003. It had few, if any, foreign operatives in the west. Saddam was a paranoiac dictator whose own advisers lied to him about the condition of his army.

Iran is not quite so naive. They do have operatives around the globe, in multiple forms. State agents, Hezbollah operatives, spies, and so on.

It was a minor fear prior to the Iraq invasion that "Iraqi operatives" might retaliate by staging terrorist attacks in the US or elsewhere. That was never a credible threat, since Iraq lacked that capability.

We'd be naive to assume the same of Iran.
That is an excellent summation although I disagree with your contention on the effectiveness or viability of Iranian operatives. In the lead up to Iraq we used many former Iraqi government officials who were in exile as sources of intelligence and information, nearly all which proved to be junk and for obvious reasons they wanted back into the power structure that they were exiled from.

I have no delusions of the challenges and potential threat that Iran possess but I am compelled to look at this situation in both a historical context as well as a perceived verses actual danger it poses. In the past we have been threatened by the likes of China, Russia, and a bevy of smaller regional conflicts that we didn't engage in militarily but instead like Nixon, chose to engage it diplomatically with a pistol in his pocket.

Ultimately I agree with you on how this may start though, with the lobbing of a few patriot cruise missiles or some surgical strike that will allegedly take out Iran's core infrastructure, communications and military. Also as you pointed out, Iran is a much larger nation in both population and size as well as it is much more sophisticated and to engage as this administration would like is pure folly that will have global consequences, and I only hope that others could see that.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,203 posts, read 27,069,843 times
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I wouldn't be surprised if covert operations are in place--just like 'Nam, and without much fanfare, notice or discussion.

The two border each other nicely, and Iran seems to have closed its border today or yesterday IRST.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:17 PM
 
223 posts, read 602,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA View Post
A couple of significant differences could alter the path. First off, Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait, kicking off the first war. In my view, that was legitimate. Second, there was an inspection process agreed to as part of the resolution of the first war, and Saddam played a lot of shell games with the inspectors, which turned into a form of instigation and provocation. Now, we can say he did it for multiple reasons, but the fact is that he did do this.

Neither situation exists with Iran.
So basically, Iraq had a history of breaking resolutions and being naughty...attacking them could be seen as both in retaliation for breaking those resolutions AND as a pre-emtpive strike against a possible future nuclear enemy

Whereas attacking Iran would just fit the latter profile...which is a lot harder to swallow than having a dual purpose (as dubious as the purposes for Iraq IMO were)

Interesting.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:24 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,158,628 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA View Post
A couple of significant differences could alter the path. First off, Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait, kicking off the first war. In my view, that was legitimate. Second, there was an inspection process agreed to as part of the resolution of the first war, and Saddam played a lot of shell games with the inspectors, which turned into a form of instigation and provocation. Now, we can say he did it for multiple reasons, but the fact is that he did do this.

Neither situation exists with Iran.
Those were reasons that at least in part legitimized the invasion of Iraq but I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong or if the causes are legitimate but merely that much of the same drum beat heard 5 years ago is being banged today. As Table pointed out, all it takes is a few missiles or a small incident for this to explode into something far greater.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheroad View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if covert operations are in place--just like 'Nam, and without much fanfare, notice or discussion.

The two border each other nicely, and Iran seems to have closed its border today or yesterday IRST.
According to Col. Sam Gardiner the US is already in the middle of covert operations inside Iran. I have no idea about his credibility as I am not familiar with the man but usually Col's don't run around asserting these sorts of things for whimsical purposes.
CNN "the war with Iran has begun"
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,203 posts, read 27,069,843 times
Reputation: 3946
It doesn't surprise me at all, and it sounds very feasible that these operations have been building and are concurrent with anti-Iran rhetoric from the Oval Office, the Pentagon and elsewhere.

History has a way of repeating itself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post



According to Col. Sam Gardiner the US is already in the middle of covert operations inside Iran. I have no idea about his credibility as I am not familiar with the man but usually Col's don't run around asserting these sorts of things for whimsical purposes.
CNN "the war with Iran has begun"
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