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By the way, what are your solutions? All I see is blaming in your posts, so what do you propose we do to change things to what you want? Please be specific with policies, figures and how results are measured.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
Sorry, but the really is no middle class wealthy ppl. If you think some living in a $300,000 house paying down a $600,000 note is wealthy you're not being honest. 80% of America is paycheck to paycheck. Just because some paychecks are bigger than others doesn't make you wealthy. You're still a working slob.
Your example of a $600K/$300K house is an example of a consumerist society and is Exhibit A of why many people are living check to check. I know many small business owners and professionals who live in $100K and $150K. People CHOOSE to buy these expensive houses. They don't have to move to those neighborhoods, and they don't have to live on the coasts or in liberal areas, where local government land use and zoning policies create these astronomically high prices.
A middle class person can move to Texas and buy a $150,000, 2 story, 2 car garage 5 bedroom house in a good school district. In fact, many people are moving from California and doing just that, you can see it in the city forums every day.
In regards to wealth, I agree it's not about bigger paychecks. My wealth is measured in my assets. Many wealthy people have regular incomes (paychecks) and a high net worth due to owning assets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
The top 20% own 85% of the wealthy and that is growing. The other 80% share the remaining 15%. In that 80% is your subset of "middle class". Beyond a 401k, a few bank own auto's and a stake in an under water mortgaged home what does the middle class have?
See above, people are in this predicament because they financed their lifestyles using DEBT in the last decade. Things will go back to normal once all of this debt is purged from the system and people start making smarter choices. Yes, I do blame the banking system and government policies for encouraging easy housing and auto credit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
No, it is the uber wealthy that hold the real wealth. They are the one's too big to fail that you wingnut call job creators. They're the ones that have looted this country and left us that $15 trillion debt.
You're one talking point after another. Can you put some meat into your posts instead of just spouting lines? If you paid attention you'd know that I'm not a supporter of either side, so who's the wingnut?
Once again, the debt drivers are entitlement programs, which don't primarily go to the wealthy. How can you match your rhetoric with the actual facts?
I'm against too big to fail as well, I was against bailouts. So, we're on the same team in that regard, I want companies to fail if they make bad choices. Other companies will pop up and take their market share, as has always happened in history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
The poor have no money, most are deep in debt. The didn't rob the treasury. The middle class, what's left of it. No, they are net zero, little debt and little saving, they didn't loot the treasury.
I grew up poor and am not deep in debt. What's different about me and those you cry for? I made better choices, I read A LOT, and I avoided debt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
The 1%, the 0.1%. Yep, that is where all the money is, that is where that 15 trillion dollars ran off to.
Do you have any links displaying a connection between our national debt and the so-called 1%? Prove it with actual facts and statistics please.
I look forward to seeing your solutions in your next post.
It's not envy or demonizing to want equitable tax rates.
Where did you get the idea that capital gains was already taxed?
If I buy a stock for $1 and it rises to $101 dollars. Sure, I paid income tax one the $1 but the $100 gain was never taxed (that's why they call it capital gains tax.) Besides, to calculate your tax liability you take the selling price ($101) and subtract the purchase price ($1) leaving the gain, which was never previously taxed.
Ok, let's follow this down the rabbit hole and compare apples to apples. What is the tax rate non-investors pay when they spend their after-tax dollars? Oh yeah, it's less than the capital gains rate when they pay sales tax. The highest sales tax in America is in Chicago, right under 10%. Capital gains is still higher.
Also, are you willing to raise capital gains taxes on middle class people, teachers, firefighters, and government employees whose pension plans that invest in these same stocks?
If you want fairness, fine. Let's make everyone's income tax rate the same with no deductions since everyone can't take the same deductions. Will that make you happy?
Or, let's go to a consumption tax with exemptions for things poor people depend on. People with higher incomes will easily have a higher share of taxes since they're the only ones who can spend enough to pay it.
Or, we can go to a flat federal tax rate to cover national basics everyone needs, and the rest can be decided at the state level. If you want to raise sky high taxes on the rich and your citizens vote for it, I support your freedom to do so! Just leave my state alone in the process since we don't want an income tax.
If you don't agree with any of my proposals, tell me what your solutions are.
First, it wasn't ME saying it. It was Bill Gates, Sr. Take it up with him if you disagree.
Second, according to new IRS data, the nation’s 400 highest income taxpayers earned an average of $202.4 million each in adjusted gross income each.
These top 400 took a record share of capital gains in 2009 -- 16% of all the net gains reported on 140.5 million individual income tax returns. Their their average effective tax rate was 19.9%. 0.00029% of tax-payers earned 16% of capital gains.
Please forgive me if I don't cry over the taxes these top 400 paid, who paid a smaller tax-rate than I did that year.
I don't know what loophole you speak of but the "loophole" Romney wants to eliminate isn't the 'Carried interest" loophole that allows hedge fund managers to get away with a 15% tax-rate. No, he wants to get rid of deducting mortgage interest -- the thing the middle-class use.
And if you looked at the list 10 years ago most of the people are different....
America has more income mobility than you realize.
And if you looked at the list 10 years ago most of the people are different....
America has more income mobility than you realize.
No, actually, the list 10 years ago had most of the same people. There are a few new ones who built some internet site during that time period, but mostly, its the same people.
Even when a person falls out of "the list", its usually because some of their stock fell during a year, and they switched places with someone who was just outside of the list.
Americas income mobility is on par with a Banana Republic. There is no other country by far in the industrialized world that you can even find a fraction of the inequality factors the US has.
You're talking nonsense, the example I cited, is just that, an example. The examples you cite are still working class slobs, be it in a $100k or $300k house. 80% of Americans are drones working the cogs for the leisure class, the uber wealthy that owns everything. A small business owner is still a working stiff, often deep in debt, overworked, underpaid, and always scrambling to stay ahead of the competition.
Back in the old dayz, the early days of the industrial revolution they had a device called the company town. Get a job with them, they rented you a house in birdtown (nickname of a company town in NE Ohio). You bought your food and supplies at the company store, and everything you'd ever need was supplied, at a cost, by the company. Pick and shovel to do your work, company store. Coal to heat your shanty, company story. Oil for your lamps, company story. They hand you money for your workweek, minus deductions for "expenses" and then you spent everything you earned at their store. The smart companies didn't even pay you with legal tender (sorta like the fiat money of today) they'd pay you with company script that was only good at their store.
Sound familiar, it is basically what we do today...
Sweet deal for the moneyed interests, they ended up with all the wealth, their only expense was the materials for the workers shanties and the food to feed the poor slobs. The working slobs could work their whole life and have nothing to show for it in the end. They are only renting their income for a few moments before returning it to pay their boss for the right to exist.
The boss, he is the one that accumulated all the wealth.
How do you fix it? Tax the uber wealthy's WEALTH each year until the debt is paid off. Time for those that created the debt to clear up their tab.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
By the way, what are your solutions? All I see is blaming in your posts, so what do you propose we do to change things to what you want? Please be specific with policies, figures and how results are measured.
Your example of a $600K/$300K house is an example of a consumerist society and is Exhibit A of why many people are living check to check. I know many small business owners and professionals who live in $100K and $150K. People CHOOSE to buy these expensive houses. They don't have to move to those neighborhoods, and they don't have to live on the coasts or in liberal areas, where local government land use and zoning policies create these astronomically high prices.
A middle class person can move to Texas and buy a $150,000, 2 story, 2 car garage 5 bedroom house in a good school district. In fact, many people are moving from California and doing just that, you can see it in the city forums every day.
In regards to wealth, I agree it's not about bigger paychecks. My wealth is measured in my assets. Many wealthy people have regular incomes (paychecks) and a high net worth due to owning assets.
See above, people are in this predicament because they financed their lifestyles using DEBT in the last decade. Things will go back to normal once all of this debt is purged from the system and people start making smarter choices. Yes, I do blame the banking system and government policies for encouraging easy housing and auto credit.
You're one talking point after another. Can you put some meat into your posts instead of just spouting lines? If you paid attention you'd know that I'm not a supporter of either side, so who's the wingnut?
Once again, the debt drivers are entitlement programs, which don't primarily go to the wealthy. How can you match your rhetoric with the actual facts?
I'm against too big to fail as well, I was against bailouts. So, we're on the same team in that regard, I want companies to fail if they make bad choices. Other companies will pop up and take their market share, as has always happened in history.
I grew up poor and am not deep in debt. What's different about me and those you cry for? I made better choices, I read A LOT, and I avoided debt.
Do you have any links displaying a connection between our national debt and the so-called 1%? Prove it with actual facts and statistics please.
I look forward to seeing your solutions in your next post.
Last edited by buzzards27; 06-11-2012 at 02:50 PM..
You're talking nonsense, the example I cited, is just that, an example. They examples you cite are still working class slob, be it in a $100k or $300k house 80% of Americans are drones working the cogs for the leisure class, the uber wealthy that owns everything. A small business owner is still a working stiff, often deep in debt, overworked, underpaid, and always scrambling to stay ahead of the competition.
Do you have statistics to prove this opinion? What's funny is over half of Americans work for small businesses and 65% of new jobs come from small firms (aka the small business owner you called a working stiff), not some uber wealthy person, leisure class, etc.
Once again, you're spitting out rhetoric not supported by facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
Back in the old dayz, the early days of the industrial revolution they had a device called the company town. Get a job with them, they rented you a house in birdtown (a company town in NE Ohio). You bought your food and supplies at the company store, and everything you'd ever need was supplied, at a cost, by the company. Pick and shovel to do your work, company store. They hand you money for your work, deduct expense and then you spent everything you earned at their store. The smart companies didn't even pay you with legal tender (sorta like the fiat money of today) they'd pay you with company script that was only good at their store.
Sweet deal for the moneyed interests, they ended up with all the wealth, their only expense was the materials for the workers shanties and the food to feed the poor slobs. The working slobs could work their whole life and have nothing to show for it in the end. They are only renting their income for a few moments before returning it to pay their boss for the right to exist.
The boss, he is the one that accumulated all the wealth.
How is this relevant to today's society? Only 19% of millionaires and above inherited their money. That means 80% are self-made! More than half never received even $1 from an inheritance. Why do you want to punish self-made people based on some company town BS that's non-existent today?
How do you fix it? Tax the uber wealthy's WEALTH each year until the debt is paid off. Time for those that created the debt to clear up their tab.
Tax their wealth at what percentage?
Total US Wealth: $54.2 trillion
Top 1% share: 37.1% ($20 trillion)
National debt: $16 trillion
We'd have to take 80% of their wealth just to pay off the national debt.
Remember, that means we've confiscated all of their businesses, stocks, real estate, etc and sold it so they won't be able to make more money for you to tax next year. Are you fine with that? If so, there is no compromising with you because you're a communist.
If you think I'm wrong, show me how you would implement your wealth tax to pay off the debt, in a way that would not discourage productive people from contributing to society after their wealth has already been taken away.
Oh, I'm sure you'd like to make the discussion about numbers and stats instead of the broader concept you're failing to grasp.
The top, the uber wealthy, control the game. They own all the marbles and are only "renting" out the marbles for us to play with. You small business owner "hero" are just tending to the wealthy's business. They may not work for the "man", but their function is to act as agents for the ones in control. They sell the man's products, collect his rents, clean up the messes the man's businesses create. They are doing what the company store used to do. They are still peons in the grand scheme of things. (fyi, I was one of them myself). These small business owner seldom if ever rise into the uber wealthy strata. For every one that does there are thousands that don't.
What's the correlation with the company town and what we do today? About the same as slavery in the old south and the pi** poor share croppers of today. The mechanics of exploitation might have changed but the end results are the same. Work a soul to death, take 99.9% of the wealth from them thru fees, taxes, costs to live, etc. Essentially, take back every dime you pay them and keep them either side of bankruptcy their whole life. Suburbia is the modern company town, priced just right for the middle class paycheck.
The only difference instead of one company town owner working both ends of the deal, we have a committee of uber wealthy owners working all the angles.
Lol, we can give the wealthy "terms" on repaying their debt. Maybe 5% a year until they pay it off.
Silly example; let's say a large bank is robbed, the bad guy gets away clean, but along his way he hires a cab and pays $5 for the ride, he then jumps a ferry and pays $25 for the boat ride. He jumps a plane and pay $100 for a flight to the next town. Once there he give half his money to his kid to hold for safe keeping. The police final track him down, and begin to recover the money.
Should they take the $5 back from the cab driver? He did provide a service, didn't he? Shouldn't he keep his money?
Should they take the $20 back from the ferry boat captain? He did provide a service, didn't he? Shouldn't he keep his money?
Should they take the $100 back from the pilot? He did provide a service, didn't he? Shouldn't he keep his money?
Should they take the money from the robber's son? He did provide a service, didn't he? Shouldn't he keep his money?
I know almost everyone would agree that they should take back the money from the robber.
But what you wingnut advocate is letting the robber and his son keep their loot, take back the money earned by the peons and when bill those same peons for the balance of the loot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
Do you have statistics to prove this opinion? What's funny is over half of Americans work for small businesses and 65% of new jobs come from small firms (aka the small business owner you called a working stiff), not some uber wealthy person, leisure class, etc.
Once again, you're spitting out rhetoric not supported by facts.
How is this relevant to today's society? Only 19% of millionaires and above inherited their money. That means 80% are self-made! More than half never received even $1 from an inheritance. Why do you want to punish self-made people based on some company town BS that's non-existent today?
Total US Wealth: $54.2 trillion
Top 1% share: 37.1% ($20 trillion)
National debt: $16 trillion
We'd have to take 80% of their wealth just to pay off the national debt.
Remember, that means we've confiscated all of their businesses, stocks, real estate, etc and sold it so they won't be able to make more money for you to tax next year. Are you fine with that? If so, there is no compromising with you because you're a communist.
If you think I'm wrong, show me how you would implement your wealth tax to pay off the debt, in a way that would not discourage productive people from contributing to society after their wealth has already been taken away.
These people live in a free country that protects commerce with laws, police and a judicial system that adjudicates disputes. There are public roads, canals and an air system that allows them to safely send and receive materials. There is a public education system that educated them and their employees. There is a public/private power and energy system that is highly reliable. There is a communication network. There is a regulation system that set standards that protect them and their workers, etc., etc.
Yet, these people feel they did it all by themselves (and didn't even state what they actually do) and probably sit around and complain about taxes, that supported all the systems that helped make them a success.
Bill Gates Sr. used to say this: Suppose you were given the choice of being born in America or in Ethiopia. What proportion of your eventual fortune would you be willing to give to be born in America? Given the great good fortune of getting to live and run a business in this country that has all the advantages an advanced country with a decent system provides, how can you think it’s all you? And then, how can you feel you don’t have any obligation to pay it back?
Let me guess: You are an Elizabeth Warren supporter, right? This seems as though you took it right from one of her speeches!
Last edited by CaseyB; 06-11-2012 at 05:46 PM..
Reason: rude
Ok, let's follow this down the rabbit hole and compare apples to apples. What is the tax rate non-investors pay when they spend their after-tax dollars? Oh yeah, it's less than the capital gains rate when they pay sales tax. The highest sales tax in America is in Chicago, right under 10%. Capital gains is still higher.
Also, are you willing to raise capital gains taxes on middle class people, teachers, firefighters, and government employees whose pension plans that invest in these same stocks?
If you want fairness, fine. Let's make everyone's income tax rate the same with no deductions since everyone can't take the same deductions. Will that make you happy?
Or, let's go to a consumption tax with exemptions for things poor people depend on. People with higher incomes will easily have a higher share of taxes since they're the only ones who can spend enough to pay it.
Or, we can go to a flat federal tax rate to cover national basics everyone needs, and the rest can be decided at the state level. If you want to raise sky high taxes on the rich and your citizens vote for it, I support your freedom to do so! Just leave my state alone in the process since we don't want an income tax.
If you don't agree with any of my proposals, tell me what your solutions are.
First you say you want to compare apples to apples then start with comparing capital gains taxes to sales taxes, which are very dissimilar. Then you go off topic onto all other types of taxes, like flat-taxes, which we weren't discussing.
My illustration was just to show you how capital gains wasn't previously taxed. You do see from my example that you were incorrect and capital gains was not already taxed, right?
I see no reason to consider capital gains earnings different from regular earnings at the same rates. Low capital gains taxes overwhelmingly benefit a tiny minority, and leave us having to raise more taxes from everyone else. What it also does is create huge incentives to manipulate other types of income to make it appear as capital gains. As Greg Anrig of the Century Foundation says, this has real economic costs. 10 Reasons to Eliminate the Tax Break for Capital Gains - Blog of the Century
So what this does is distort economic behavior and since conservatives are always trying to advocate for an undistorted economy, they should want what I want.
Lastly, while 19.9% is higher than most pay now, that's only true because we have a screwed up tax system that doesn't raise the money that we need to run the government. 19.9% is far lower than taxes used to be when the economy boomed. There is no evidence that the old capital gains rates of the 1970s, 40% deterred any investors from investing.
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