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You are correct about the "not a comparison" part. PR has a population about 40 times that of Aruba which of course leads to a whole variety of substantial differences. But here's the obvious one - Aruba has a labor force (the portion of the population working or seeking work) of only 41K people and an enormous tourism trade relative to its size. So, it is rather easy for them to have very low unemployment (and therefore a higher standard of living) when virtually the entire labor force can be employed in jobs either directly or indirectly supported by tourism. Clearly that is not even remotely possible when you multiply the population by a factor of 40, as in the case of Puerto Rico. Lastly, regardless of the fact they are two dramatically different economies, the whole conjecture is moot anyway because Aruba NEVER BECAME an independent country. Movement toward full independence was halted at Aruba's request in 1990. They are still a commonwealth of The Kingdom of The Netherlands, just as PR is a commonwealth of the U.S.
I say all of this because it is risky to just hope and wish that things will somehow magically improve if Puerto Rico became an independent country or to promote such a theory based on grossly invalid comparisons. In closing, I will reiterate what I've said before on this forum - I'm not taking a stand one way or the other about statehood vs. independence vs. status quo. I'm merely trying to look at it from an objective standpoint. And I will just say that I don't know anyone who has studied and understands the complexities and intricacies of such a situation that believes that independence for PR would be anything other than an all-out economic disaster. And to take the discussion a little beyond just economics... since there has been some discussion about political corruption, ask yourself if you truly believe that is going to magically improve as well if PR became fully independent and there was no more Justice Dept./Attorney General/FBI/etc. in the background at least keeping an eye out for really severe corruption. Or is it more likely that corrupt politicians will simply become more corrupt? Let's face it, corruption stems from greed. Is independence going to really make these people do a 180 degree personality about-face and go from being greedy and corrupt to giving and honorable?!?! And what about the drugs problem some have discussed? Do you think that is going to improve if there is no more DEA presence on the island and all the federal anti-drug funding goes away as well??? Now, I'm certainly not saying that the DEA or the money will ever solve the drug problem - they won't - but you can't actually think it is going to improve if they go away. There are other examples all of which are fairly clear if you consider the likely before and after just using a little common sense.
True, as it is right now, PR is in a hole. Very hard times. A lot of this has to do with the fact PR is dependent. Puerto Rico relies on the US for everything. Independance would not mean instant paradise.
However, there are some countries that are small and overpopulated with few natural resources that are pulling their own.
-Ireland
-Costa Rica
-Luxembourg
-the Bahamas
-Taiwan
-South Korea
-Singapore
They have their problems but for the most part they are stable. Luxembourg I belive has the highest per capita income in the world.
This is a question to you out there. Why can't Puerto Rico achieve the same goals over time...?
One of the few times I agree with Hustla...PR needs to become independent. The only reason it has not progressed is partially because the status is always in question and the political parties rather fight amongst themseves and their quest for whatever status of PR, versus the health of PR itself. It is unfortunate that the island is in such a great position to be a first rate country, but is too busy in political garbage to move forward.
As it currently stands, PR's sole purpose is as a commercial market for US products, as well as tax evasion/money laundering for large corporations. PRs are fed welfare, because that money can only be spent on US products, services, and merchandise....which further fills the coffers of US companies.
The country is raped by US corporations, and all money and wealth is quickly and efficiently transferred back to the US, leaving no money in the PR economy, except of course the $6 buck an hour jobs....what a priviledge.
The only way for the country to move forward and keep the money in PR is to become independent, and rely on itself. Of course true independence will not occcur for decades, and they will likely always have some support of the US, retain the dollar currency, and dual citizenship, but be independent at some level. That's my 2 cents....
True, as it is right now, PR is in a hole. Very hard times. A lot of this has to do with the fact PR is dependent. Puerto Rico relies on the US for everything. Independance would not mean instant paradise.
However, there are some countries that are small and overpopulated with few natural resources that are pulling their own.
-Ireland
-Costa Rica
-Luxembourg
-the Bahamas
-Taiwan
-South Korea
-Singapore
They have their problems but for the most part they are stable. Luxembourg I belive has the highest per capita income in the world.
This is a question to you out there. Why can't Puerto Rico achieve the same goals over time...?
Alas, the only one of those which is remotely comparable is The Bahamas and even there you have a very similar situation to Aruba (see my earlier post). The Bahamas has a huge tourism trade relative to its small labor force. They can quite easily survive due purely to their very close proximity to Florida. Between the enormous number of cruises and tourists which go there and South Florida locals who visit for day trips and weekend getaways, they are in a rather unique situation. As for the other examples, there are so many socio-economic differences that there simply is no valid comparison between them and PR.
Mythspell..PR can do quite well as independent. If you think they will just magically sever all ties to the US one day and all of a sudden be an island without a currency, a military, a government, and economy, or sources of income, then you have no idea how the transition to independence has occured for numerous countries.
That being said, independence would be rolled out in stages, as the ties between the two countries are far too deep to sever in one swoop...that would be detrimental and disastrous to both countries. PR as independent would retain the dollar as its currency, and no doubt maintain very strong ties with the US, with subsequent military support (should they need any) as just one example. However, the transition would occur over, 10 years for example, with the large US corporations that are already existing in PR signing agreements directly with the PR government, creating a profitable relationship for the newly independent country, and not just sucking all profits back to US interests.
Furthemore, Puerto Rico will be able to enter into agreements, as any sovereign country can, DIRECTLY with the world markets that will be beneficial PR DIRECTLY, again keeping profits on the island and expanding the economy. Puerto Rico will be able to own what is rightfully theirs, with a transfer of ownership of all the land that has been gobbled up by US Corporations, so that PR can also share in the wealth creation that will take place, and exert its influence on how progress should/can be made on the island, without Big Brother calling the shots first.
These are but a few examples of how PR can succeed as an independent nation. It is similar to those that rent versus own, or work 9-5 versus owning their own business. You pay your rent and it goes to LLs pockets, while you..well... keep renting. You work 9-5, while the company, or owner, makes the money..and you are given meager raises to keep you at a minimum level of happiness and servitude.
Wealth is created by owning...not by working for someone else...and that is precisely what PR has been doing for the past 500 years...working for Spain, then working for the US..helping make both prosperous nations, while PR was afforded a minimally acceptable lifestyle, so long as all PRs wealth was always shuttled back to its owner.
Will it be easy? Nothing worthwhile ever is. Is success guaranteed? Heck no...look at all the other independent nations that are struggling, or outright failures. Is it better try to own yourself, and your own destiny? I say YES. They owe it to themselves...and they will have enough support from the US to make a pretty strong go at it.
It is in the US's best interest that PR succeed as an independent nation, as US products are the only game in town...so the more money and wealth that is generated in that country, the wealthier the US and those US companies represented on the Island, will be.
As it currently stands, PR's sole purpose is as a commercial market for US products, as well as tax evasion/money laundering for large corporations. PRs are fed welfare, because that money can only be spent on US products, services, and merchandise....which further fills the coffers of US companies.
The country is raped by US corporations, and all money and wealth is quickly and efficiently transferred back to the US, leaving no money in the PR economy, except of course the $6 buck an hour jobs....what a priviledge.
This theory just doesn't pass the common sense test. Here's a thought, if you don't believe me then simply ask all those who receive welfare/housing assistance/etc. if they would be better off if they got cutoff from it. And, of course, it's always easy to try and blame things on the big bad corporations but again, trying asking all of those people employed by those companies if they would be better off if all those jobs disappeared. And obviously it's far from accurate to assert that the only money going into the economy is from "$6 buck an hour jobs". Firstly, they aren't all minimum wage jobs. I grant you, many of them are but then again there are many minimum wage jobs here in the U.S. as well, or any other country for that matter. Obviously all the people in the world earning minimum wage would like to make more but then again, most realize that job is better than nothing. And secondly, many of those so-called U.S. corporations actually aren't. Look at the biggest employer in PR at this time, Walmart - it actually isn't the same Walmart as the corporation here in the U.S. but rather it is a local company - Walmart of Puerto Rico. And they alone are churning several hundred million dollars of that locally earned money right back into Puerto Rico. And thirdly, every single one of those U.S. corporations (regardless of whether they are localized or not) still put money back into the local economy through paying for construction of facilities, electricity, water, telephone service, maintenance contracts, etc. etc. etc. So, if all of those U.S. corporations no longer existed and therefore weren't raping the country as you suggest, how exactly is this newly independent country go to replace the direct and indirect jobs they provided and the direct and indirect money they put into the local economy???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
The only way for the country to move forward and keep the money in PR is to become independent, and rely on itself. Of course true independence will not occcur for decades, and they will likely always have some support of the US, retain the dollar currency, and dual citizenship, but be independent at some level. That's my 2 cents....
Again, right off the bat, this doesn't pass the common sense test. Become independent and rely on itself??? There is virtually no country on the planet that is self-sufficient and can rely on itself, much less an island country!
Your next sentence then flip-flops back and forth. You start out by talking of "true independence" but then almost immediately switch to "they will likely always have some support of the US, retain the dollar currency, and dual citizenship" which is clearly not even remotely "true independence" and then finally end up somewhere in the middle with "but be independent at some level." Well, that is basically where Puerto Rico is right now... independent at some level.
In closing, I will re-state what I've said before... "I don't know anyone who has studied and understands the complexities and intricacies of such a situation that believes that independence for PR would be anything other than an all-out economic disaster." Nevertheless, something that hasn't really been pointed out thus far anywhere in this thread is that the residents of Puerto Rico have repeatedly shown that an independence vote will almost certainly never happen. In every vote or poll thus far, the number of people who favored either statehood or remaining as a commonwealth far outnumbered the number who favored independence. So, this talk of independence is almost certainly never going to happen - that's not me saying it but the people of Puerto Rico. It just seems to make more sense to focus energy on improving things in other directions.
Exactly, the majority of folks down in PR do not support independence from the US. Reality aside, for a case-study of what PR would face and/or look like if independence somehow happened (it won't) look at present day Dominican Republic, and they have more land mass, natural resources, but otherwise have the same island economic dynamics as PR would have as an independent nation. To further highlight the irony, PR has an immigration problem with people from the Dominican Republic in the same relative limelight as the CONUS has from rural Mexico. That should ultimately clarify the reasons why PR will never become independent (unless the US gives the island the boot which will probably won't happen either). I don't have a dog in the fight anymore, as my narrow-minded classmates once asserted, I had 50 states and I chose mine and left but mythspell gave a pretty concise reasoning for why independence is unlikely.
PR should be independant but I agree that it will probably never happen. The consequences of this are clear. PR is a spoil of war as it was won in the Spanish-American War and has been partially integrated into the US system. But it functons like a halfway house, neither here nor there. It is very analagous to Quebec which kind of fits into Canada but kind of does not and yet cannot bring itself to leave the parents' house. A distinct culture absorbed by another but not fititng.
I doubt they would do very well on their own and I think they know that. Most Caribbean nations are actually not very sound economically. And as more and more develop tourist economies, there is more competition.
Of course the best strategy for poor countries is to copy what formerly poor countries have done. Ireland emphasized education and made itself a great place for foreign investment. It also used its EU aid well. Could PR do the same?
I support allowing Puerto Rico to be independent of the U.S. and no longer a U.S. territory. BTW, could you people please take that little loudmouth from the Spike Lee movies? Thanks.
I support allowing Puerto Rico to be independent of the U.S. and no longer a U.S. territory. BTW, could you people please take that little loudmouth from the Spike Lee movies? Thanks.
Tony, Puerto Rico is an unincorporated territory with commonwealth status, under the constitution of 1952.
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I'm interested in this as my DIL's grandmother has gone home to PR..we worry about her sometimes 
Puerto Ricans debate statehood
