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Old 06-23-2012, 11:38 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,871,447 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
It's basically an expensive way to kick the can down the road... Well, we don't have any good jobs for you today, so go to college and it might be better when you graduate.... Well, a lot of them have graduated and I'm sure they would love to tell you how much love they are getting from the labor market, as well as their creditors...

I think it's safe to say, politicians have done a marvelous job of kicking my generation in the pants. Thanks
What's really scary is the people going to get nontechnical masters and T3 law degrees because when they graduated college they had nothing to do with themselves and were afraid of unemployment/underemployment. I know several people doing this. I don't say anything to them about it because it is their life, they already made their decisions, and it's not my place to say anything. They are going to graduate with six figures of debt and a degree that is still not going to put them ahead of anyone else starting from the bottom, and I worry for them.
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,702 posts, read 24,780,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALackOfCreativity View Post
What's really scary is the people going to get nontechnical masters and T3 law degrees because when they graduated college they had nothing to do with themselves and were afraid of unemployment/underemployment. I know several people doing this. I don't say anything to them about it because it is their life, they already made their decisions, and it's not my place to say anything. They are going to graduate with six figures of debt and a degree that is still not going to put them ahead of anyone else starting from the bottom, and I worry for them.
And that is also why I worry for my country. Not just because of the federally backed loans either... They have spent so much time pursuing something that may very well lead to NOTHING. Had they applied that time to learning something that is in demand, we would all have been much better off. Plenty of technical and vocational entry level positions can be pursued after graduating high school. After 2-3 years, they could easily be making a decent income that could support themselves. Another couple years, and they could be making a very decent middle class income. You won't get rich, but you would be doing just fine. Why the heck aren't HS counselors and parents talking about this stuff???

What I believe is... Everyone is scared NOT to have a degree or credentials behind their name. Folks have lost the confidence in THEMSELVES as an individual, and lost confidence in their OWN ability to dictate their own destiny.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:35 AM
 
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,936,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
I would also consider an engineer to be a "doer". The boundaries are a bit hazy in many cases. Many times, the engineers are also programing the robots or computer controlled equipment, and directly responsible for "doing" the work. That is to say, they are making the part, just the same as their blue collar counterpart, the machinist, would be doing. In many cases, the titles can even be interchangeable. In fact, part of the role of a machinist is to be able to consult customers on design changes based on the most practical method of manufacturing. In other cases, engineers are responsible for designing the work, and actually installing it. The boundaries are not necessarily that black and white. The "thinkers" are often just as much the "doers", and visa versa.

And this is why I emphasis often, we need intelligent folks to consider other occupations besides the traditional 4-year degree routes. We are going to be loosing a great deal of potential work in this country when the babyboomers retire, and take their years of experience and knowledge with them, without having the chance to pass it down. Some of this stuff takes years, even decades to thoroughly learn. Once it's gone, it's gone for good I fear.

I largely agree, and my point is, in general, it is easier to calculate the cost of humans vs robots when the task is that of a "doer" versus a "thinker". The latters value to a corp is always going to be somewhat subjective.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:42 AM
 
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,936,526 times
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Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Plenty of technical and vocational entry level positions can be pursued after graduating high school. After 2-3 years, they could easily be making a decent income that could support themselves. .
Except if more went that route, a huge chunk would end up flipping burgers, as the supply side of the equation would be over-saturated. While you have said college was not a good experience for you, those kids pursuing it are keeping supply DOWN for those who pursue these vocational paths after high school. That avoids further pressure to lower wages for the technical/vocational jobs.
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Old 06-24-2012, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,702 posts, read 24,780,162 times
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Originally Posted by bobtn View Post
Except if more went that route, a huge chunk would end up flipping burgers, as the supply side of the equation would be over-saturated. While you have said college was not a good experience for you, those kids pursuing it are keeping supply DOWN for those who pursue these vocational paths after high school. That avoids further pressure to lower wages for the technical/vocational jobs.
Yes, I am very much benefiting from a lack of competition in my particular trade. Heck, I wouldn't mind a few more bodies and brains around on occasion. The body can only take so many consecutive 60-70 hour workweeks, and I can't imagine my knee caps lasting past 55 at this rate. My brain can only handle so much number crunching and trig before I want to pull my hair out. I often wondered why so many in my trade were grey and/or balding. But I was always amazed at how sharp they were with numbers. If only younger folks had more respect for such a talent...

But the problem we have is... Too many have pursued the more expensive, 4-year degree route, and now some are trying to juggle student loan payments (mini mortgages) on burger flipping wages. This is exactly where several of my friends in my age bracket are at right now. Starbucks, Subway, other various service sector jobs... Heck, Starbucks is practically creme de le creme as far as many are concerned. This is not an ideal situation by any means.

A 4-year degree is an excellent choice for the best and brightest. Hands down, it will offer the best upward potential. Some will have to settle for trades. I always liked building things in my dad's garage and getting dirty. Math was always my friend. My choice was obvious. It worked out well, and I still get to use my brain. The upside is I will probably get an office someday, but my life will be making sure the work is done right and matches the customers demands, and perhaps consulting in some form. I will get screamed at if things aren't just as they should be, and I will always have folks to answer to. That's fine, I never had ambitions of being a CEO some day. I think many other young people would be good at this too, if they simply had some exposure to it, and saw what I do for a living. I'm sure many others would also be satisfied installing plumbing systems, doing electrical work, operating cranes, etc. These are honest paying careers doing honest work. This stuff is NEVER mentioned by HS counselors.

A big reason I feel is our economy is broken. Life is hard for many in the trades, with job insecurity, downward pressure on wages for many of the older guys, illegal labor occupying entry level opportunities, etc. The system is broken. It will effect everyone, in every honest profession, from all walks of life. Professional workers are feeling it. Business owners are feeling it. Everyone is being effected just the same. When I don't have money to spend, I will be taken out of the equation as a customer. We are all dependent on one another, whether we realize it or not.

That doesn't mean we need more young people pursuing expensive 4-year degrees in lieu of other honest professions. Since the reduced need for entry level workers is hypothetically going to hit nearly every professions, every profession is going to offer equally less opportunity for entry. Cramming them all in for those 4-year degree requirement positions won't solve a thing, and merely places a lot of unnecessary debt on their shoulders.

Opportunities in the trades these days aren't very rosy. The apprenticeship I went through closed down 2 years into mine. The waitlist is around 5 years long. A recurring theme is, if they call someone up, they are usually in college. It makes sense. This opportunity isn't available, might as well give this one a shot. But the unfortunate fact is, opportunities for young people are slim pickings all around. Entry level jobs, the trades, all of them.

This is just the way I have always seen it. There is opportunity if you are already trained to do a job. If your coming out of college, chances are you are not 100% proficient. Many employers simply will not train you to do a job when they can find plenty of people to do the job at peek performance on day one.

Yes, my generation has a very tough road ahead. 25K of debt or more is the last thing many need on their plates. For a typical entry level job, that is around what they will make... Maybe even more. Loosing 4 working years (more like 5) just to land a job that will barely pay off the expense incurred during those 4 years... Yes, we are ALL going to feel that one. Less consumers available to drive this consumer driven economy. If we are really becoming a service based economy, we are REALLY in trouble then.

Most seem to agree this is a new age in America. This is a new economy. I would be a bit ticked off if I lost 4 working years while incurring another working year of debt. You've said it yourself, it's probably not going to be like it was in years past. We're starring into the abyss at that point.... Yes, I would be very scared and just a bit ticked off myself...

It's not that I didn't enjoy my college experience. I simply didn't think I was getting my monies worth. I know how hard I work for 4K. No way am I blowing that listening to some liberal blowhard flap their gums around how Detroit is just about to make a comeback and we should all be buying real estate... And that was about 3 years ago... Glad I didn't follow her advice And these are the people they let teach at U of M. I'll keep my money and you keep your degree lady. Just like I will tell Obama next election to keep his hope and I will keep my change

College is an excellent choice if you want to be an accountant, an engineer, a doctor, and so forth. But we can't all do those jobs. Some are going to have to do jobs like mine, which require OTJT. And yes, many more will be needed to flip burgers. Many more of us will also be changing careers at one point or another. This is how it always worked before, and for better or worse, this is probably the way it will always work. Liberal arts degrees won't change the equation. If you made them all accounting major graduates, you still wouldn't change this equation. Take it from a H.S. grad whose spent a lot of time thing about this...

Last edited by andywire; 06-24-2012 at 02:29 AM..
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:00 AM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,216 posts, read 8,098,568 times
Reputation: 2037
Productivity has increased greatly... Need less workers... College is only a part of the problem.
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