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View Poll Results: Should Senator John Kerry Take Part In The 25th Vietnam Wall Anniversary Events And Parade.
Yes 17 35.42%
No 30 62.50%
Not Sure 0 0%
I Have To Learn More About What John Kerry Said About Vietnam Veterans. 1 2.08%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-29-2007, 02:40 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,285 posts, read 54,094,268 times
Reputation: 40586

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudCapMarine View Post
John Kerry is a traitor.
A traitor is someone who has commited treason, exactly what treasonous act(s) are you alleging Kerry commited? Talk doesn't qualify unless it was giving secrets to the enemy.

 
Old 09-29-2007, 03:31 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,285 posts, read 54,094,268 times
Reputation: 40586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
If you wil review Kerry's testimony, I believe what you will find is that he "observed" very little of what he commented on, and relied on the stories of other, deeply committed anti-war veterans -- the authenticity of some of whose information was later discredited or found to be unsubstantiated.
Here is part of what he said early in his talk:



STATEMENT OF JOHN KERRY, VIETNAM VETERANS AGAINST THE WAR
Mr. Kerry: Thank you very much, Senator Fulbright, Senator Javits, Senator Symington, Senator Pell. I would like to say for the record, and also for the men behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony.

I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare.

Winter soldier Investigation
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. "

I can't find anywhere he claimed to personally observe these things. Even if some were later proven false why should he be held as a traitor for accepting in good faith the stories of his fellow vets, especially given the time this occured? He was reporting what he observed at the Detroit meeting, was he supposed to lie and say he heard nothing?
 
Old 09-29-2007, 09:14 PM
 
3,301 posts, read 6,311,250 times
Reputation: 810
Default John Kerry destroyed the morale of many troops in the field during the Vietnam War.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudCapMarine View Post
Here's more details about the Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation

The below listed foundation is a great source for information about everything to do with the Vietnam War and after the war... Some people are trying to keep the truth from getting out. You can read the evidence at: Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation


Col. George E. "Bud" Day serves as the VVLF's President. Col. Day served in World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War, and is America's most highly decorated living combat veteran. Shot down over North Vietnam on August 26, 1967, he spent more than five years as a Prisoner of War.

Col. Day was the only POW to escape from prison in North Vietnam, only to be recaptured by the North Vietnamese in the South. Col. Day has received nearly 70 military decorations and awards, the most notable being the Medal of Honor. Currently, Col. Day is a practicing attorney in Florida, specializing in profound injury and death litigation cases and military law.

About us


When John Kerry slandered an entire generation of men who fought in Vietnam he branded them as "war criminals." Today, much of the same thing is being said about our young men and women in Iraq. Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation

Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation

is an organization created to better educate and inform the public about the Vietnam War, its events, its history, and the men and women who sacrificed to serve their country. About us

Learn about our mission... Mission Statement
Here's one way to express your Free Speech.

John Kerry destroyed the morale of many troops in the field during the Vietnam War, and he has tried to do it with our troops fighting this War On Terror.
PRESS HERE TO SIGN THE PETITION "REMOVE JOHN KERRY FROM THE UNITED STATES SENATE" UNDER THE U.S. CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT 14.
(You can post some comments at the site)
Remove John Kerry From The United States Senate Petition
 
Old 09-29-2007, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
14,044 posts, read 27,135,181 times
Reputation: 7373
Nobody is going to be removing Kerry from the Senate, he won the Mass election by a good margin and continues to be a very popular Senator. The single best objective source I have found for election information is the site run by Professor Larry Sabato, University of Virginia, and he considers Kerry's seat as "safe" for the Democrats in 2008:

Sabato's Crystal Ball - SENATE RACES '08 (http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/article.php?id=LJS2007021501 - broken link)
 
Old 09-29-2007, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,255,124 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
Here is part of what he said early in his talk:



STATEMENT OF JOHN KERRY, VIETNAM VETERANS AGAINST THE WAR
Mr. Kerry: Thank you very much, Senator Fulbright, Senator Javits, Senator Symington, Senator Pell. I would like to say for the record, and also for the men behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony.

I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare.

Winter soldier Investigation
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. "

I can't find anywhere he claimed to personally observe these things. Even if some were later proven false why should he be held as a traitor for accepting in good faith the stories of his fellow vets, especially given the time this occured? He was reporting what he observed at the Detroit meeting, was he supposed to lie and say he heard nothing?
I did not state that he observed them, either. But the poster to whom I was responding did, indeed, make that claim.

Nor have I called Mr. Kerry a "traitor" in any of my posts. You may have me confused with another poster.
 
Old 09-30-2007, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,203 posts, read 27,064,625 times
Reputation: 3946
Good info! Kerry like other politicans represent their constituents for the most part, and while I have a great deal of empathy and sympathy for that matter for the OPs position, it is not my own.

I honour those that serve, but I also understand human nature to some extent, or at least attempt to, and sitting in your office, or living room is one thing, taking a gun to shoot a deer another, murdering your neighbour a third, but serving in the military differs from daily life where decisions are made on more of an individual basis.

Sitting in a trench, watching the named enemy must be different, and treated differently. Yet, how many times have we been told to do something, knew it was wrong, and did it any way. Often, I suspect.

In war, or an insurgency, if they are different, the man or woman in the field is following orders. After the fact, when no longer taking those orders, and again a civilian, what one did under orders may seriously come into personal question.

Trying to take an objective view of those angry with Senator Kerry, those who favoured his statements and Senator Kerry himself, I would say objectively he felt he was going with his conscience. I don't fault him for this decision.

We don't all make the same decisions, and it is not easy to really stand in another person's shoes--or on the same ground.

Also one man's opinion, his right, does not denigrate an entire body of serving countrymen, and while it must hurt to think and feel you are personally under attack, it is perhaps time to let it go: an observation is not always a personal attack, but a rejection of an incident or action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA View Post
Nobody is going to be removing Kerry from the Senate, he won the Mass election by a good margin and continues to be a very popular Senator. The single best objective source I have found for election information is the site run by Professor Larry Sabato, University of Virginia, and he considers Kerry's seat as "safe" for the Democrats in 2008:

Sabato's Crystal Ball - SENATE RACES '08 (http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/article.php?id=LJS2007021501 - broken link)
 
Old 09-30-2007, 10:44 AM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,285 posts, read 54,094,268 times
Reputation: 40586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
I did not state that he observed them, either. But the poster to whom I was responding did, indeed, make that claim.

Nor have I called Mr. Kerry a "traitor" in any of my posts. You may have me confused with another poster.

You did say "If you wil review Kerry's testimony, I believe what you will find is that he "observed" very little of what he commented on", I was just trying to indicate he never said he observed these things personally so why is it even an issue? I know you never called him a traitor but it's difficult to respond to several posts with one reply, I'm guilty of trying to get two birds with one.........

I will note the poster who called Kerry a traitor has yet to reply with exactly what treasonous acts he alleges Kerry to have commited. I contend McNamara is a traitor for pursuing a war which he admits he knew was wrong and that Westmoreland was a traitor for lying to Congress about the war's progress. Those aren't alleged actions, they're documented facts. Still waiting to hear what act(s) of treason Kerry allegedly commited. I hardly think reporting what he was told by fellow vets constitutes treason.
 
Old 09-30-2007, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,255,124 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
You did say "If you wil review Kerry's testimony, I believe what you will find is that he "observed" very little of what he commented on", I was just trying to indicate he never said he observed these things personally so why is it even an issue? I know you never called him a traitor but it's difficult to respond to several posts with one reply, I'm guilty of trying to get two birds with one.........

I will note the poster who called Kerry a traitor has yet to reply with exactly what treasonous acts he alleges Kerry to have commited. I contend McNamara is a traitor for pursuing a war which he admits he knew was wrong and that Westmoreland was a traitor for lying to Congress about the war's progress. Those aren't alleged actions, they're documented facts. Still waiting to hear what act(s) of treason Kerry allegedly commited. I hardly think reporting what he was told by fellow vets constitutes treason.
To the extent to which your post refers to me, I accept your exaplanation of why you misrepresented my reference to Mr. Kerry.

It is an "issue" because the popular perception is that Kerry was commenting on incidents of which he had personal knowledge -- that he was, in effect, bearing witness. The fact, of course, is that he was disseminating hearsay, much of which was subsequently discredited, and all of which was insulting and defamatory of all Vietnam veterans.

Also -- although I did not and have not called Mr. Kerry a traitor, I would argue that his reporting of inflammatory hearsay before a Congressional committee in a manner that harmed of the morale among American troops, and at least indirectly offered of aid and comfort to their enemies, approaches any reasonable definition of what is, in effect, treason.

Actually, as you are no doubt aware, Mr. Kerry's independent meetings with the Vietnamese communist negotiators in Paris, while he was still a Naval reservist, are more damaging to Kerry's credibility and reputation -- and aproach more nearly the definition of "treason" -- than his subsequent shameful Congressional testimony.
 
Old 09-30-2007, 02:32 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,285 posts, read 54,094,268 times
Reputation: 40586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
It is an "issue" because the popular perception is that Kerry was commenting on incidents of which he had personal knowledge -- that he was, in effect, bearing witness. The fact, of course, is that he was disseminating hearsay, much of which was subsequently discredited, and all of which was insulting and defamatory of all Vietnam veterans.

Also -- although I did not and have not called Mr. Kerry a traitor, I would argue that his reporting of inflammatory hearsay before a Congressional committee in a manner that harmed of the morale among American troops, and at least indirectly offered of aid and comfort to their enemies, approaches any reasonable definition of what is, in effect, treason.

I try not to form opinions based on popular perception, all too often it's removed from the actual facts.

In the context of the time this all took place I don't understand the hatred directed at him. After all, in a meeting with fellow returned vets would it be expected for him to think they were all lying about their experiences? Approaches treason? I'll blame the truly guilty who go far over that line. Westmoreland, by lying and no doubt prolonging the war, must personally be blamed for the needless deaths of good people. Kerry was a mosquito bite compared to the problems created by the massive egos in DC and the Pentagon.

I'll freely admit my view isn't popular perception. After 30+ years I doubt I'm likely to find anything that convinces me the real culprits of Vietnam were anyone other than the likes of McNamara, Westmoreland, and others who got the US involved for no particularly good reason.
 
Old 09-30-2007, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,255,124 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
I try not to form opinions based on popular perception, all too often it's removed from the actual facts..
Which is precisely what I have been arguing, lo these many posts: Kerry and his ilk, mendaciously slandered all Vietnam veterans by describing them as war criminals for partisan political motives -- and aided in building this untruthful POPULAR PERCEPTION.
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