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You're are so wrong, I can only pity you. Of course, there is a vast difference between a fetus and a baby. God knows that perfectly well. If you're so right, then why did one of the most highly God fearing and most conservative states in the union, Mississippi, vote down personhood?
OK, so would you like to list some of those important differences which make one a person and the other not?
Oddly, the concept of 'life at conception' is fairly new. Even the most orthodox religious sects ok'd abortion until 'quickening' for a long time. In fact, nearly all societies allowed abortion. It seems to me the anti-choicers are more about controlling women instead of caring about the fetus. Once people have power, they will do anything to keep it... women are making their own decisions and a lot of people aren't happy about relinquishing the power over us. They won't give it up without a fight and all this 'baby' stuff is nothing but a smokescreen.
"Even the most orthodox religious sects ok'd abortion until 'quickening' for a long time."
So which is it?
Are religious whackos forcing their religion on others or not?
"It seems to me the anti-choicers are more about controlling women instead of caring about the fetus."
Really?
Sometimes societies need to prevent those who lack self-control from engaging in behavior which harms others (see speed limits).
If self-control were a little more relevant to those who support abortion they wouldn't need to hide behind ridiculus buzz words like "anti-choice".
"In fact, nearly all societies allowed abortion."
Really?
"I SWEAR by Apollo the physician and Æsculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation — to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others. I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgement, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons labouring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further, from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves. Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot."
"Once people have power, they will do anything to keep it... women are making their own decisions and a lot of people aren't happy about relinquishing the power over us."
Women have the power to murder their babies and use this power granted by the state to end the lives of children who become inconvienient.
You are very correct that those women who do not respect life will do anything to keep this power.
Sorry, Who. I should have expressed myself more clearly; Women had back alley abortions, but women also carried children. Women today have abortions, but women also carry children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adiosToreador
The majority of Conservatives are pompous, self-righteous sycophants and bigots who want to force their views onto everyone else and who label anyone who doesn't agree with them as un-American or some other lowly term just to get a rise out of them.
Shame that their merits, what little of it that they have, are weak and shallow.
Getting back on topic - Abortion =/= murder. The woman has the right to choose and not you, Person, nor anyone else has any right to tell them otherwise. Or would you be open to letting me tell you what to do with your body?
Didn't think so.
Isn't it ironic that you say whats in red then you say what's in blue? So libs don't label? Okay.
Again, so the government can tell you what you can do with your body just not what you can't? Odd.
[quote=JetJockey;25013050]Seriously...the self congratulatory stuff is getting old.
There were many things that made me leave the pro life movement. The hypocrisy, the hatred of women, the faux outrage for 'babies' but the outright disdain for the women who were involved and the lies. Oooooh, the lies... Using photos that were from medical textbooks or medically relevant abortions very late term (ya know, the ones where the fetus doesn't have a brain or spinal chord etc.) or miscarriages that wer no fault of the woman and using them on signs and telling women that this is what they're doing etc. It was blatant lying and emotional coercion and I just couldn't be a part of that movement.
After talking to many women who had abortions (under the guise of pro life counseling, of course) I realized that these women were autonomous beings who thought long and hard to make a very difficult decision and surprisingly did not regret it. My pro life people always told me that they did regret it, but wouldn't admit it. After actually talking to these women, I believed the women.
Having access to safe abortions is extremely important. Why doesn't the pro life movement focus more on providing contraception and education to PREVENT the abortion in the first place? It seems to me the same pro life movement who is trying to ban abortion are the same people trying to block women from using contraception and blocking schools from teaching comprehensive sex-ed. Why is that? I'm very pro-choice and I spend a lot time trying to educate women to prevent abortions from happening, yet the people trying to BAN them aren't? Isn't that odd?[/quote]
Everything in bold I agree with. I personally because of my beliefs don't agree with bc, but I don't think that it should be illegal, and everyone has to make their own choices about that. I do think that sex ed should be purely informative, that doesn't mean teaching them how to have sex (lets face it, who needs to be taught that) or how to put on a condom. The only thing that should be taught is the science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching
it just goes to show that both sides of the political spectrum are complete idiots.
republicans are in favor of the death penalty and against abortion.
democrats are against the death penalty and for abortion.
what oxymorons both parties truly are.
I addressed this in a college debate recently; Abortion involves the death of an innocent child, and the death penalty punishes someone for a crime. As a Catholic, we believe that Gods law as well as mans law should be followed, as long as they do not contradict Gods law. And before the left wingers jump on me, there are many examples in the Bible where God has not only condoned capital punishment, but demanded it.
[quote=personwhoisaperson;25024149]Sorry, Who. I should have expressed myself more clearly; Women had back alley abortions, but women also carried children. Women today have abortions, but women also carry children. """"
And the purpose of saying women had abortions then and now and women carried babies then and now??? Was that a POINT????
"""Isn't it ironic that you say whats in red then you say what's in blue? So libs don't label? Okay.
Again, so the government can tell you what you can do with your body just not what you can't? Odd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetJockey
Seriously...the self congratulatory stuff is getting old.
There were many things that made me leave the pro life movement. The hypocrisy, the hatred of women, the faux outrage for 'babies' but the outright disdain for the women who were involved and the lies. Oooooh, the lies... Using photos that were from medical textbooks or medically relevant abortions very late term (ya know, the ones where the fetus doesn't have a brain or spinal chord etc.) or miscarriages that wer no fault of the woman and using them on signs and telling women that this is what they're doing etc. It was blatant lying and emotional coercion and I just couldn't be a part of that movement.
After talking to many women who had abortions (under the guise of pro life counseling, of course) I realized that these women were autonomous beings who thought long and hard to make a very difficult decision and surprisingly did not regret it. My pro life people always told me that they did regret it, but wouldn't admit it. After actually talking to these women, I believed the women.
Having access to safe abortions is extremely important. Why doesn't the pro life movement focus more on providing contraception and education to PREVENT the abortion in the first place? It seems to me the same pro life movement who is trying to ban abortion are the same people trying to block women from using contraception and blocking schools from teaching comprehensive sex-ed. Why is that? I'm very pro-choice and I spend a lot time trying to educate women to prevent abortions from happening, yet the people trying to BAN them aren't? Isn't that odd?[/quote]
Everything in bold I agree with. I personally because of my beliefs don't agree with bc, but I don't think that it should be illegal, and everyone has to make their own choices about that. I do think that sex ed should be purely informative, that doesn't mean teaching them how to have sex (lets face it, who needs to be taught that) or how to put on a condom. The only thing that should be taught is the science.
I addressed this in a college debate recently; Abortion involves the death of an innocent child, and the death penalty punishes someone for a crime. As a Catholic, we believe that Gods law as well as mans law should be followed, as long as they do not contradict Gods law. And before the left wingers jump on me, there are many examples in the Bible where God has not only condoned capital punishment, but demanded it.
Capital punishment is off topic.
And is it "God's law" that you should take great delight in the death of women who die during back alley abortions..saying they get what YOU think they deserve...
Seriously...the self congratulatory stuff is getting old.
There were many things that made me leave the pro life movement. The hypocrisy, the hatred of women, the faux outrage for 'babies' but the outright disdain for the women who were involved and the lies. Oooooh, the lies... Using photos that were from medical textbooks or medically relevant abortions very late term (ya know, the ones where the fetus doesn't have a brain or spinal chord etc.) or miscarriages that wer no fault of the woman and using them on signs and telling women that this is what they're doing etc. It was blatant lying and emotional coercion and I just couldn't be a part of that movement.
After talking to many women who had abortions (under the guise of pro life counseling, of course) I realized that these women were autonomous beings who thought long and hard to make a very difficult decision and surprisingly did not regret it. My pro life people always told me that they did regret it, but wouldn't admit it. After actually talking to these women, I believed the women.
Having access to safe abortions is extremely important. Why doesn't the pro life movement focus more on providing contraception and education to PREVENT the abortion in the first place? It seems to me the same pro life movement who is trying to ban abortion are the same people trying to block women from using contraception and blocking schools from teaching comprehensive sex-ed. Why is that? I'm very pro-choice and I spend a lot time trying to educate women to prevent abortions from happening, yet the people trying to BAN them aren't? Isn't that odd?
Great post and true! Especially the hypocrisy of those Anti-Choicers ....their phony concern for "life" has been shown to be just that, phony.
When people begin using absurd standards to define who is or is not a person, we end up with the most vulnerable among us having their personhood taken away as a matter of convenience for others.
If fetuses could kill those who kill them, life would be LEGALLY defined as beginning at conception.
Your argument that it is legal reminds me that slavery was legal in this country.
The Supreme Court declared blacks property in the same way they declared fetuses non-persons.
One decision is no different than the other.
In each case, a vulnerable group had all of their rights taken away because the Court officially declared them to be non-persons.
Oh, of course NO thread on abortion would be complete without the OLD trite/stupid/mangled thinking that compares slavery to abortion....I know Repugs HATE education but how many years can they hang onto this crap????
Slavery was wrong(have to explain that to Repugs, they don't think it is) and abortion isn't wrong.
Slavery dealt with people, abortion deals with a blob of cells...and , no, I don't expect you to get it...
Isn't it ironic that you say whats in red then you say what's in blue? So libs don't label? Okay.
Try again. I'm not a liberal nor do I associate with them. Though that's typical of a conservative - wrongfully assuming things about others!
Grow up.
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