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Old 07-06-2012, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Florida
77,012 posts, read 47,481,489 times
Reputation: 14806

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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboy7375 View Post
Then that is their own fault. If they choose not not to go to a dr for fear of paying a few hundred bucks, who,s fault is that?
It's not about pointing fingers and blaming someone. It is what it is. Those people would be alive if they had had insurance. Not everyone can afford $3000 for colonoscopy.

 
Old 07-06-2012, 06:31 AM
 
Location: Florida
77,012 posts, read 47,481,489 times
Reputation: 14806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pammyd View Post
I am wondering why so many people had to die because of no health insurance, don't understand? Did they die because they thought they couldn't find a hospital to care for them without insurance? Did they think that all doctors would turn them away without insurance? I don't get it?? I have a friend who just recently had a serious illness that has required surgery and our local hospital took her without insurance. They gave her the surgery and are now working out payments monthly with her on the bill. She probably will not get quite all of it paid off by the time she gets old and feeble and has to have rest home care, but at least they are working with her. I am, therefore asking is part of this issue a problem with people not understanding how the medical system works and what is available without having any insurance?? Hell, even car dealers offer no money down for a new vehicle why can't hospitals take patients without insurance and why didn't the medical system take those 26,000 people with "no money down"??
For the most part it has to do with preventive care, which people without insurance do not, or cannot participate in. For example, colonoscopy is expensive, but saves lives because it can detect cancers while they are still in curable early stages. If you do not take the colonoscopy, you will not be aware of your condition, until it has spread to the rest of your body, and will kill you even if the best care was given to you.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 06:34 AM
 
4,255 posts, read 3,473,815 times
Reputation: 992
in 2010 26,100 people died because they were either too stupid or too cheap to go to a dr.


That is a much more accurate and truthfull statement.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,105,746 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Those people would be alive if they had had insurance. Not everyone can afford $3000 for colonoscopy.
You still haven't proven that, and you're still lying as usual.

The number of Americans with health insurance is ZERO.

Many Americans with health care coverage -- and that is what it is not "insurance" still die of what you call "preventable diseases."

You haven't prove those people would have sought care, even if they had an health care coverage plan.

And Medicine is not a Science. No such thing as a "preventable" illness or disease, since so many die of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
For the most part it has to do with preventive care...
So, you're saying Americans need health care coverage to keep from becoming obese? How exactly does that work, given than so many Americans with health care coverage are obese?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
For example, colonoscopy is expensive, but saves lives because it can detect cancers while they are still in curable early stages.
It saves some lives, not 100% of all lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineVA View Post
I never said it was TRUE. That is a different matter/different thread. If we are going to address the OP in this thread and take it as fact (if you can disprove the fact that is another matter) then we need to address that fact specfically.
I am addresssing the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineVA View Post
If 26,000 people were died due to access to health care because of lack of coverage, that is an appalling number.
It's 0.0083% of the population.

How is that appalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineVA View Post
So can we just discuss the point that 26,100 people died due to lack of healthcare?
Sure, we can discuss that just as soon as you prove that:

1] They would have sought medical treatment if they had health care coverage; and

2] That in seeking treatment, their condition would have been discovered; and

3] Since Medicine is not a Science, that they would have lived, and

4] That they would not have died of something else (since many have more than one disease or illness); and

5] You'll need to prove that the cause of death is the exact cause and not a factor, ie in cases where the cause of death is listed as pneumonia, when in fact it was HIV

As soon as you clear that up, we can get on with the discussion, unless your plan is to do nothing but rant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You are saying the same thing, yet accuse me of spinning something? Of course the reason of any bankcrupsy if the inability to pay bills. I am simply saying that in most cases the bills happen to be medical bills.

Some people just disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Not lies, but facts. 62% of all bankruptcies in US are because of medical bills.
State specifically, in no uncertain terms, exactly how Obamacare will prevent that.

Because it won't prevent it, and in fact, it would actually increase the number of bankruptcies.

Which brings us back to the whole point of how much money should you spend on one person in a life-time for health care?

$1 Million per person per life-time? That works out to $13,350 per year for someone living to the age of 75, and would cost you $312 TRILLION and you ain't got that kind of money. If you do, then state in no uncertain terms where the money will come from, and do not use vague, ambiguous and nebulous terms like "taxing the rich."

Show your math. All of it, especially seeing how you will have to tax the rich to pay for Social Security, assuming you still want Social Security.

$500,000 per person per life-time? That comes to $156 TRILLION and works out to $6,700 per year for 75 years, per person. You ain't got that money either.

$250,000 per person per lifetime? That comes to $78 TRILLION and works out to $3,500 per year per person. You ain't got that kind of money either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
At least we have a high rate of health insurance coverage...
No, you don't. There are no Americans with "health insurance."

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Buying health insurance on the free market can be expensive for ordinary Americans...
Not true, because no one in the US can purchase health insurance. What you are purchasing is health coverage, which is not the same thing.

Maybe I should quote the definition of insurance from Black's yet again:

Black's: Insurance is a contract whereby for a stipulated consideration, one party undertakes to compensate the other for loss on a specific subject by specified perils.

What's the total loss for an insurance company on a $500,000 Life Insurance policy? $500,000. Nothing difficult about that.

What's the total loss for an insurance company on a $250,000 home-loss and $500,000 liability for an Home Insurance policy? That's easy: $750,000

What's the loss for an insurance company for a $30,000 auto, $25,000 in liability and $50,000 in property damage for an Auto Insurance policy? Doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar or "you-Harvard" to figure out that it is $105,000.

What's the loss for an insurance company for an health care plan?

You don't know. Neither does anyone else.

Insurance is about knowing ahead of time what the total damages are, and then assessing risk in order to obtain assets to cover the losses that are known in advance.

One of these things is not like the others....

You guys figure it out yet?

I'll put it another way, since the lot of you have such a difficult time with this. If your auto insurance was like an health care plan, none of you would be driving, because none of you could afford the cost of coverage. Likewise, none of you would ever own a home, because you would never be able to afford the cost of coverage.

Why can you afford auto insurance and home/renter's insurance and life insurance? Because the amount of loss is known in advance, and risk is assessed to offset costs.

The fact that health insurance does not exist in the United States, is one reason why you pay so much for health coverage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
and if they have pre-existing conditions unaffordable.
That isn't true either.

There are high risk drivers that can get auto insurance. The bottom line is that people with pre-existing conditions do not want to pay their fair share. They want everyone else to pay their costs for them, and they are too selfish to realize that no one has any money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Won't being able to switch jobs start your own business without fear of losing health insurance increase our freedom rather than decrease it?
You don't need Obamacare for that. What I'm hearing is that you insisted that your employer sponsor your health plan coverage, but you didn't have the courage or self-discipline to do the right thing, and you want the government to force you to do something that you should be doing yourself anyway.

You are responsible for your own health, not your employer, not the government and not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
a small quote:

Democrats will confine the unfortunate to many forms of deprivation, but not deprivation of basic medical care. Republicans will. The GOP is the only mainstream political party in the advanced world to hold this stance.


And basic medical care is defined as what, exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I don't think health care should be a privilege depending on one's job.
And yet in the greatest of ironies, you refused to take responsibility for your own health plans, and instead sloughed that responsibility off on your employer, and then when you decided you no longer liked how your employer is handling your health care, you want the government to step in and take responsibility for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Eh. False choice. Health insurance is (for many) much more expensive than cable TV.
Then they can share an house or apartment with others to save money. They can cut down on their expenses.

There are many things they can do, they simply choose not do to them, and instead demand everyone else pay for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
You go to great lengths with your dissertation to justify selfishness and lack of compassion.
On the contrary. There's nothing selfish or apathetic about Reality™. This is another classic Life-Boat™ scenario.

100 people on a sinking ship; one life-boat that holds only 8 people. Conservatives will select people based on merit, perhaps 9-10 if their are children, and while 90 people will die, at least 10 will live.

Then we have Liberals who would try to cram all 100 people onto the life-boat with the end result being that everyone dies.

And everyone dying is advantageous and beneficial how, exactly?

I'll sit back and wait while you all tap dance around for answers.

So, again, how exactly is Obamacare going to prevent medical bankruptcies?

How exactly is Obamacare going to prevent people from dying of "preventable" illnesses?


Mircea

Last edited by CaseyB; 07-07-2012 at 08:08 AM..
 
Old 07-06-2012, 07:42 AM
 
Location: CHicago, United States
6,933 posts, read 8,476,638 times
Reputation: 3510
Quote:
In 2010, 26,100 people died because they had no health insurance


If the number of deaths being quoted is accurate, then I think someone should line-up that many caskets outside the the U.S. Capitol and the Congressmen and Senators should be made to walk through on their way as they vote on healthcare legislation.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Florida
77,012 posts, read 47,481,489 times
Reputation: 14806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
The number of Americans with health insurance is ZERO.
OK, if you say so, if you say so.........
 
Old 07-06-2012, 10:24 AM
 
12,905 posts, read 15,614,527 times
Reputation: 9393
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomexico View Post
[/b]

If the number of deaths being quoted is accurate, then I think someone should line-up that many caskets outside the the U.S. Capitol and the Congressmen and Senators should be made to walk through on their way as they vote on healthcare legislation.

Ah, don't bother. According to Mircea, that's an easy enough number to live with.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Florida
77,012 posts, read 47,481,489 times
Reputation: 14806
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineVA View Post
Ah, don't bother. According to Mircea, that's an easy enough number to live with.
Yes, 26 000 Americans is so few that's it's hardly worth mentioning.....
 
Old 07-07-2012, 05:50 AM
 
26,970 posts, read 15,187,034 times
Reputation: 11959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Purchasing insurance is being personally responsible, and not a liberal idea. Medical bills can run in the millions, and are #1 reason for personal bankruptcy in US. Are you trying to say that a good conservative doesn't buy insurance? LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
If you think having insurance is dumb, then I take it you do not have health insurance. I guess you are one of those people who just rely on other people to pay for your cure when something happens heatlhwise.


OK, it's easy to see from these posts that all are responsible for themselves.
A personal responsibility it is.
 
Old 07-09-2012, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,431,094 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomexico View Post
[/b]

If the number of deaths being quoted is accurate, then I think someone should line-up that many caskets outside the the U.S. Capitol and the Congressmen and Senators should be made to walk through on their way as they vote on healthcare legislation.
and millions died WITH insurance



there is ZERO PROOF that even ONE of those 26000 would still be living if they had insurance...

there is ZERO PROOF that bankruptcies are due to medical bills
ie: some guy claims bankruptcy: has 30,000 dollars debt to CC, 200,000 debt to a folded mortage, has 20,000 debt to a car payment, and 6000 to a medical bill from 3 years ago....yet elizabeth warren((and the faulty study in the American Journal of Medicine conducted by Dr. David Himmelstein and other researchers from Harvard University and Ohio University)) will claim that that bankruptcy was due to medicaL

* The personal bankruptcy rate was actually higher in Canada in 2006 and 2007 (0.30 percent for both years) than in the United States (0.20 percent and .27 percent).
* Medical spending was only one of several contributing factors in 17 percent of U.S. bankruptcies -- medical debts accounted for only 12 to 13 percent of the total debts among American bankruptcy filers who cited medical debt as one of their reasons for bankruptcy.
* Medical reasons were cited as the primary cause of bankruptcy by approximately 15 percent of bankrupt Canadian seniors (55 years of age and older).
* Non-medical expenditures comprise the majority of debt among bankrupt consumers in both Canada and the United States; the inability to earn sufficient income to cover these costs -- not exposure to uninsured medical costs -- is the real explanation for almost all bankruptcies in either country.

Last edited by workingclasshero; 07-09-2012 at 07:51 AM..
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