Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams: Public school system a bigger threat to blacks than the Klan (legal, permit)

[DiogenesofJackson]

Originally Posted by irishvanguard

False argument. Conservatives have always championed local and state control of standards, and thereby parents would maintain SOME SMALL CHANCE to affect the quality of their kids' educations. Alas, with more and more federal control, there is more and more DESPAIR at the loss of hope that the quality of public education will ever be what is required in the job market and in preparation for college.

Liberals are constantly on the side of unions instead of kids.

The Cold War context had both conservatives and liberals realizing that math and science instruction in the schools was so diverse (and subpar) from one local community to the next that federal standards had to be imposed.

From the Dept. of Ed's website:

The Cold War stimulated the first example of comprehensive Federal education legislation, when in 1958 Congress passed the National Defense Education Act (NDEA) in response to the Soviet launch of Sputnik. To help ensure that highly trained individuals would be available to help America compete with the Soviet Union in scientific and technical fields, the NDEA included support for loans to college students, the improvement of science, mathematics, and foreign language instruction in elementary and secondary schools, graduate fellowships, foreign language and area studies, and vocational-technical training.

The sections in bold above support my contention that local schools' standards for math and science largely sucked in the United States before the federal government took a more active role in setting national standards--and conservatives and liberals jumped on board because it was sold as a measure by which to battle the Soviets--especially in the space race and rivalry for technological superiority.

The Every Child Left Behind Act is another more recent bipartisan measure in which the federal government assumes more national standards for local schools. In August of 2008 (under the el presidente Jorge W. Bush Administration), the Dept of Ed. initiated a panel through which it would advise the states on how to implement the Every Child Left Behind Act, as the quote below attests:

U.S. Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings today announced the appointment of 16 members to the National Technical Advisory Council (NTAC), which Spellings announced as part of the proposed regulations to strengthen No Child Left Behind. The Council's purpose is to advise the Department on complex and technical issues regarding the design and implementation of state standards, assessments and accountability systems. The Council will offer expert advice on such things as the use and applicability of minimum subgroup sizes for proficiency calculations, confidence intervals and the principles necessary for ensuring that performance indexes are consistent with the Title I statute and regulations.

[key points in bold]

This is an example of federal imposition of education standards (and they use state departments of education to implement federal standards)--something that has usually been a bipartisan effort--and in my opinion keeps standards at a minimum because public education in American has usually sucked, partly because the politicians on both sides of the aisle try to take control of education and ideology gets in the way of actually educating people.

All quotes except the first one come from U.S. Department of Education

[ovcatto]

Originally Posted by DiogenesofJackson

The Cold War context had both conservatives and liberals... [/url]

I might add:

The original Department of Education was created in 1867 to collect information on schools and teaching that would help the States establish effective school systems. While the agency's name and location within the Executive Branch have changed over the past 130 years, this early emphasis on getting information on what works in education to teachers and education policymakers continues down to the present day.

Federal Role in Education

[GuyNTexas]

Originally Posted by Iamme73

I have never ignored any problem. I just don't see problems as racial. You do. You seem to think there is some special black reason for poor school performance that can't be explained. I disagree.

You're saying that there is no problem then?

Originally Posted by Iamme73

I agree that all children don't learn the same, but I get leery of the suggestion that the school system operates as if all children are the same. Clearly this is not the case. They track children. Separate them by aptitude.

Total nonsense. Nothing could be further from the truth. They're lumped together by age. And that's how it works. Some make it, some don't, and the beat goes on.

Originally Posted by Iamme73

I do agree that standardized tests are very difficult when we have so much inequality in this nation. We expect schools to overcome all of the disadvantages this society hands millions of children.

I think less racial segregated schools. I think less economically segregated schools would do wonders for this nations school system. We have given up on that idea.

Wait .... I thought it was not a "racial issue" ? If that were true, how could racial segregation have any part in it? As for money ... that's a lame excuse .... before the public school system took over, most children were educated in little school houses, with very limited resources.

But let me tell you ... the desegregation approach has already been tried, and was a miserable, abject failure. This is the trouble with you liberals ... you all have a memory span of less than 24 hours. This liberal lunacy of "desegregation" was implemented when I was in school, and it was a disaster ... and the people behind it shoulda been shot!

Here you are calling for it again? Unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Iamme73

Imagine if we took the best schools systems that already exist and expanded them and put many more students in them. I always say why reinvent the wheel.

The problem I see is that we view certain children as defective and a lot of parents don't want their children learning besides those children. So we get the system we have.

Parents want their children to get the best education they can get. So they don't want their children to be the victims of this "equal" nonsense, which caters to the lowest common denominator, and therefore holds their educational development hostage to the slowest learners among them.

The reality that liberals insist on rejecting is that people are not "equal". Children are not "equal". This is the trouble ... this idiocy of "equal". It's the one size fits all mentality. Guess what ... if we were all equal, there would be only one size for pants, shoes, shirts for everyone. If we were all equal, everyone would be corporate CEOs, NFL Football players and movie stars.

Why can't you people understand this is the very nature of reality ... that all things, including people, are different and therefore, by definition, not equal?

[JazzyTallGuy]

Originally Posted by EdwardA

Cherrypicking stats gotta love it. Now go get stats in the rural Delta and compare to Kentucky. At the end of the day Detroit's schools were deemed "Dropout factories" by Arne Duncan and BET and half of the city's residents are functionally illiterate.

Well since you asked about the rural delta; here is a list of EVERY country in the State of Mississippi where Black Americans comprise more than 60% of the population. You will notice that they ALL have higher percentages of high school graduates over the age of 25 than the counties I listed in my prior post in Kentucky. You should note that only ONE county has less than 60% of the population over the age of 25 as high school graduates compared to NONE of the counties I listed earlier in Kentucky, despite the fact that many of the counties in Mississippi had similar income levels and poverty levels.

Bolivar County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $16,051
Median household income: $26,005
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 71.5%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 20.4%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 35.7%
White Non-Hispanic: 33.0%
Black or African American: 64.2%

Claiborne County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $12,571
Median household income: $24,150
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 83.6%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 17.5%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 35.0%
White Non-Hispanic: 14.2%
Black or African American: 84.2%

Coahoma County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $15,687
Median household income: $24,726
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 74.2%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 14.3%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 35.5%
White Non-Hispanic: 22.9%
Black or African American: 75.1%


Hinds County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $20,676
Median household income: $39,215
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 83.6%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 27.2%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 22.5%
White Non-Hispanic: 27.9%
Black or African American: 69.1%


Holmes County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $11,585
Median household income: $21,375
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 67.3%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 11.2%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 43.4%
White Non-Hispanic: 16.2%
Black or African American: 82.6%

Humphreys County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $13,282
Median household income: $25,131
P ercentage High School Graduate age 25+: 62.9%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 11.5%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 42.9%
White Non-Hispanic: 22.8%
Black or African American: 74.4%

Issaquena County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $11,810
Median household income: $21,360
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 59.7%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 4.3%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 39.7%
White Non-Hispanic: 34.6%
Black or African American: 64.2%

Jefferson County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $12,534
Median household income: $24,304
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 76.6%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 20.5%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 39.0%
White Non-Hispanic: 14.3%
Black or African American: 84.7%


Leflore County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $12,957
Median household income: $22,020
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 68.8%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 16.6%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 39.7%
White Non-Hispanic: 24.5%
Black or African American: 72.5%

Noxubee County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $12,759
Median household income: $22,178
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 66.0%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 13.1%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 35.6%
White Non-Hispanic: 26.9%
Black or African American: 71.5%

Quitman County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $13,080
Median household income: $24,169
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 63.6%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 11.0%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 34.8%
White Non-Hispanic: 28.7%
Black or African American: 69.4%

Sharkey County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $14,322
Median household income: $30,129
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 70.6%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 17.8%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 34.9%
White Non-Hispanic: 27.7%
Black or African American: 70.8%


Sunflower County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $11,993
Median household income: $25,012
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 69.8%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 13.0%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 33.3%
White Non-Hispanic: 25.6%
Black or African American: 72.4%

Tunica County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $15,711
Median household income: $29,994
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 72.4%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 14.6%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 25.7%
White Non-Hispanic: 23.5%
Black or African American: 72.8%

Washington County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $15,946
Median household income: $27,797
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 72.5%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 17.6%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 34.8%
White Non-Hispanic: 17.6%
Black or African American: 72.5%


Wilkinson County, Mississippi
Per capita income: $14,333
Median household income: $28,066
Percentage High School Graduate age 25+: 68.9%
Percentage College Graduate age 25+: 9.0%
Percentage of County Below Poverty Level: 28.1%
White Non-Hispanic: 29.1%
Black or African American: 70.1%

In short you response to my earlier post was based on you own biases about poor black people in Mississippi than any factual information.

Once again you proved that prejudice and bias is more often than not BASED ON IGNORANCE!

Once again the problem of poor people in America receive substandard educations isn't a race problem IT'S AN AMERICAN PROBLEM.

[Edmund_Burke]

I want To know why the doe has 25000 guns.

[whogo]

Originally Posted by Edmund_Burke

I want To know why the doe has 25000 guns.

In case people in 2020 want to drive their own cars.

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by 20yrsinBranson

Every problem with "public education" begins at home. If children are not taught to respect people, they will not respect their teachers. If children are not taught right from wrong and PUNISHED for misdeeds, they will think that they can do anything they want without repercussion.

Parents teach the love of learning to their children long before they go to school. They also teach such things as integrity, self-discipline, and pride. If children are failing in public school it is because they are thrown into it in kindergarten or first grade without the basic skills that make them human. They are being set up to fail by their parent(s).

I will grant you that there are some really bad teachers out there, but a good student, a student who cares and tries and was taught from birth how important a good education is, will prevail against poor teaching skills.

Do not blame public education for the failures of the parent(s).

20yrsinBranson

I actually agree with this. It does start with parents demanding an excellent education for their kids and I will also say that it starts with parents having a true choice on where to send their kids to school.

I will admit, being black and living in predominately black neighborhoods for the majority of my time here in the south, that a lot of parents, I have realized, where I live, are not aware that their black children are being taught at a lower level than the children in white neighborhoods. They are too trusting IMO and think that all schools are up to par with each other but there can be subtle differences that make a huge difference. One of the most major differences IMO is that many children come from homes where they were not read to before they got to school. This can cause poor literacy rates, especially for black boys who are too often referred to special ed classes for "behavioral" problems when in reality the behavior may be stemming from and embarrassment about not being able to read like other students. I have worked as an assistant in schools before and have seen this first hand with young black boys and most of the time if they have a patient person, working one on one with them every day, they can achieve their literacy level. This sort of literacy study should be taking place at home and too many parents are too lazy or ignorant to make their kids read because the kid doesn't want to and will act out. It is up to parents to be a partner with teachers and to attend PTA and BOE meetings in order to influence their local district, not sit around and blame teachers for their kid not being able to read.

Originally Posted by Iamme73

This simply is not the truth and has no basis on people who are actually looking at problems in education.

Here is it two students are on the honor roll at their respective schools. Both students take say the SAT, one student gets a 1400(forgive me if the scoring of the SAT has changed when I went to school 1600 was a perfect score) and the other student gets a 800, how can that be they are both honor roll students are their respective schools.

The quality of different schools is very large. So much so that an Honor roll student at some schools get a 1400 on the SAT while an honor roll student at anther school scores 800

This is the type of disparity in education that is rampant in this society. This is the great challenge.

I agree that the sort of disparity that you spoke of above exists in many lower income and black schools in this country. The kids are learning watered down material of the upper income Asian, Indian, and white counterparts are learning and many will think they are "honor roll" material when they really aren't. Similar to what I described above. They are unaware of what they are not learning.

Also wanted to note that many more affluent kids get better scores on the SAT/ACT due to test prep. I was a poor black kid and did very well on the ACT that I took for college, mostly because I asked about test prep and because we were low-income, I got to take that class for free. Many times black students aren't aware of test prep classes. IME most schools do not teach to ACT/SAT test, especially not the vocabulary and analogy parts and many school districts teach different versions of science material than what is on the ACT. My 18 year old cousin took a test prep course and was surprised about how much of the science and vocabulary he had never heard of. Math is universal, but even with math a lot of black kids are not pushed to excel by their schools into higher level math classes. I also feel that this is something that the parents need to take the lead on. Unfortunately, like I said, many parents are ignorant to what is available for their kids and I do feel that school counselors have a responsibility in educating them, but for me, I don't depend on other people to educate me about the opportunities available for my child. I will go out and look up info about various things and then go to the school and tell them what to do for me and my child. Not the other way around.

Originally Posted by thriftylefty

From the same article

poor white boys do just as well as African-American boys who do not live in poverty,


What I get from the article is that being poor and white in America gets you the same education that Urban black kids are getting.The problem is not skin pigmentation ,income or schools. Its motivation , there too many ways to make money in urban America with out an education. As long as we have Jobs for people who can't read or write and do math we will aways have people who are not motivated to learn.

But back the subject of the thread, Sowell has got enough college degrees to wall paper the shotgun shack he was born in. One would think he might have a blue print to improving public education. But he doesn't want to get his hands dirty and he gets more attention for being a tool for the right wing and criticizing an obviously strong voting block of the Democratic party.

The bold is my only issue actually with Sowell. Don't know much about that Williams fellow, but I do feel that Sowell should be offering some sort of solutions or starting programs to help black youth since he points out they have so many issues. I am actually not someone who has an ill view of him. I think a lot of what he says makes sense, but I do feel that he allows himself to be used as a pawn for right wing conservatives. You can compare him to Cornell West, an other academic who many conservatives hate. He even has been critical of Obama and was mentioned here on CD as "proof" of black people losing support for Obama, but he doesn't allow people to use him or his work for their own political gains or entertainment purposes. I have issues with him too because he talks the talk, but at least he is man enough not to let other people take advantage of him or his work and use it to further their own political/ideological message.

And on Mircea's whole "black culture" rant....how is something a culture to all black people in this country when not all black people follow what you described as "black culture." How many black people in your neighborhood aren't drug dealers or gang bangers. How many of the young girls don't end up shot dead on a corner? And FWIW, why would you think that she is out committing a crime or something. She may have snuck out, like teenage girls do to meet friends or her boyfriend or something and even though it is rather, I'll say what I say to my kids, "naughty" it doesn't mean she was some horrible "black culture" negative girl who got killed for her evil deeds of wanting to commit crimes. My younger brother once snuck out of the house to, of all things, go to the store and get some pop and chips, because he couldn't sleep that night. None of us knew he snuck out and the next day he told my mom his leg was hurting and that a car had hit his leg the night before. He went out around 2am to a gas station on the corner for a snack, not to commit a crime. He has never been arrested and works 60 hours a week and is only 23 years old and probably makes more money than you do. I am from Ohio as well and most of the black people I grew up with, were not how you described at all and I would bet that if you got to know most of the people in your neighborhood you would see that the majority of them are not like that either. I admit that there is a street culture in this country. I don't think it is only relegated to black people though because there is street violence in lots of communities around this country.

It is also interesting to me, how you are railing against black people, yet you say you live in a black neighborhood and they are all such horrible people, killing, and drive bys and such, yet you are sitting around on your computer ranting and even go out and "run" in the neighborhood. I would think you would be hiding from all the evil blacks and their culture. Evidently your rant is not true or you would be assaulted every day on your runs and someone would have already stolen your computer and driven you out of the neighborhood.

[Roadking2003]

Originally Posted by ovcatto

Well there you have it, Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams say it so it must be so...

I think that black "intellectuals" and their fellow travelers (see Alan West) will find themselves responsible for a modified adaption of Godwin's Law for their predilection for hyperbolic false equivalencies.

By the way, are Sowell and Williams the only black (I wouldn't want to offend their conservative sensitivities by referring to them as African American) public intellectuals that reactionaries know?

Your intellectual jealousy has been exposed.

[Roadking2003]

Originally Posted by Iamme73

This simply is not the truth and has no basis on people who are actually looking at problems in education.

Here is it two students are on the honor roll at their respective schools. Both students take say the SAT, one student gets a 1400(forgive me if the scoring of the SAT has changed when I went to school 1600 was a perfect score) and the other student gets a 800, how can that be they are both honor roll students are their respective schools.

The quality of different schools is very large. So much so that an Honor roll student at some schools get a 1400 on the SAT while an honor roll student at anther school scores 800

This is the type of disparity in education that is rampant in this society. This is the great challenge.

Maybe it's not the quality of the school. Maybe it's the quality of the student's home life.

[wutitiz]

Originally Posted by Edmund_Burke

I want To know why the doe has 25000 guns.

Probably a similar reason as gun-banner Dianne Feinstein, when it was discovered that she had a concealed handgun permit. She said that it was to protect her from all the gun nuts. lol

There was a WAPO story maybe two years. ago about the DOE buying a bunch of sawed-off, pump action shotguns. Truants, beware.