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Old 07-11-2012, 08:53 AM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,095,708 times
Reputation: 4828

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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
thought it was buzzard.

I still believe that the guys 1st Amendment rights were violated in this case. I also wonder if the city would have done anything at all if the people doing the meetings would have been muslim instead of christian.
They city would have done exactly the same thing when his neighbors started calling to turn him in regardless of whether the structure he built under a fraudulent permit in violation of local zoning laws and building safety codes, and was using to host 30-70 people 3+ times a week, had been a Church, Mosque, Temple, soup kitchen, poll hall, battered women's shelter, or a swinger's club (in fact, had it been for a non-religious use, they probably wouldn't have let this drag on for 5 years before actually clamping down on him).

Keep in mind his neighbors (and therefore the city) had no problem when he was simply holding religious studies with a group of friends in his house a few times a weeks for the first 2 years he lived in the neighborhood. He's never been told he can't do that. He's never even been told that he can't build a church on his property - local zoning actually allows him to build a church on his property (as strange as I think that is). All he's been told to do is to bring his church up to code and into compliance with zoning laws - something he just flatly refuses to do.

His address is in a previous post. If you do a Google search, you'll see there are 10 (presumably properly zoned and built to code) churches operating less a mile from this guy's illegally constructed church - and most of them are tucked away in quiet residential areas. Clearly the people in his area don't have problem with churches.

Last edited by hammertime33; 07-11-2012 at 09:03 AM..
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:56 AM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,095,708 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
you find that a pastor had 70 followers scary? also known as church members. small church membership then.
Have you watched any of his online sermons? The man's nutty.

https://www.youtube.com/user/kryptologos

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Old 07-11-2012, 10:11 AM
 
Location: La Jolla, CA
7,284 posts, read 16,675,136 times
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I don't think half the people in this thread read either the back story or the current product of this boob's zoning woes. He's running a church on a residential property and labeling it "bible study" so that he can play victim when the fire marshal and code enforcement people show up. That's the extent of this dumb story. The guy thinks he's above having to do what other churches do, like being zoned and keeping buildings up to code.

Should we just dump codes and zoning for all churches? If so, fine. But it doesn't work both ways just because some ex-con minister has (still) not grasped the concept of laws.
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles County, CA
29,094 posts, read 25,996,493 times
Reputation: 6128
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
The issues in this case were similar.
Yes they were - in Des Moines - the place got shut down because people didn't like the couples lifestyle - nor those of the people they invited to the house.

In Phoenix - people don't like that the man is holding a Bible study.

So much for "tolerance".
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Baltimore
8,299 posts, read 8,603,285 times
Reputation: 3663
"Once in a while it sounds like a raccoon dying," Rosenstiel said. *LOL*
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
24,260 posts, read 14,197,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier View Post
Yes they were - in Des Moines - the place got shut down because people didn't like the couples lifestyle - nor those of the people they invited to the house.

In Phoenix - people don't like that the man is holding a Bible study.

So much for "tolerance".
He was operating a church. The property is titled to a church. There have been no taxes paid on the property since 2008 since it is a CHURCH.

Even churches have to follow building code, and codes for parking availability.

He can call it "bible study" if he wants to go and pay the back taxes for a house. Around $12,000. But he would still have to follow zoning laws for the building in which they meet.
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles County, CA
29,094 posts, read 25,996,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helenejen View Post
"Once in a while it sounds like a raccoon dying," Rosenstiel said. *LOL*
Shoot - they are practically underneath the flight path into Sea-Tac - doubtful that they could hear anything.

Actually - they are under the flight path - 1200 block? The 3rd runway was built on the ground where 12th Ave. used to be - that house is 3 miles from the airport.
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles County, CA
29,094 posts, read 25,996,493 times
Reputation: 6128
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
Have you watched any of his online sermons? The man's nutty.

https://www.youtube.com/user/kryptologos

He reminds me of Adam Gadahn.
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
3,500 posts, read 3,132,544 times
Reputation: 2597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier View Post
Yes they were - in Des Moines - the place got shut down because people didn't like the couples lifestyle - nor those of the people they invited to the house.

In Phoenix - people don't like that the man is holding a Bible study.

So much for "tolerance".
I lived in Phoenix for 16 years. The last thing a Christian church in the area has to worry about is persecution and intolerance. In fact, in my experience, you're more likely to be discriminated against for not being Christian.
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:35 PM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,095,708 times
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The city of Phoenix posted its take on this situation today on its webpage. Here it is (note to mods - this is public information, there are no copyright problems with posting the whole thing):


Official Site of the City of Phoenix - Fact Sheet Regarding the Michael Salman Case



The Michael Salman court case is about building safety. Building and safety codes are in-place to protect the safety and welfare of all of our residents. Some of the relevant facts in this case include:
  • A house of worship is allowed in any zoning district in the City of Phoenix
  • The case is about the building that is used for regular assembly does not meet construction and fire code requirements for assembly
  • All houses of worship in the City of Phoenix must conform to the same codes
Mr. Salman had regular gatherings of up to 80 people. He held services twice a week and collected a tithe at the services. The building that he held services in had a dais and chairs were aligned in a pew formation. He held himself out as a being a church through the media (Harvest Christian Church) and claimed a church status for tax exemption purposes on his property.

Due to the regular, reoccurring high vehicular traffic in this quiet residential neighborhood, neighbors repeatedly complained about the public assembly occurring on his property. Because of the multiple, reoccurring complaints, the City investigated the activity and discovered numerous building code violations primarily related to fire safety standards. Once apprised of these violations, the City could be held liable for not enforcing safety code requirements in the event anyone was injured on the premises. Prior to commencement of prosecution, Mr. Salman was asked, repeatedly, to comply with the safety codes of the City. He chose to ignore these requests for voluntary compliance prior to the commencement of any proceedings.

Below is a summary of the case from the City's Law Department, including quotes from the relevant court judgments.

Timeline
Mr. Salman's interaction regarding his property dates back to 2006, when he was advised by the Zoning Administrator that his property was analogous to a church and required compliance with the Zoning Ordinance.

During 2007, Mr. Salman had interaction with the City regarding his attempts to build on his property. The issue revolves around Mr. Salman's assertion that he is building a detached garage, when the building is actually to function as a church. Mr. Salman builds, despite not having a proper permit. On May 1, 2007, he is cited for, and eventually pleads responsible to building without the required permit. (Pleads responsible 7/18/2007)

In the Fall of 2007, Mr. Salman is notified several times by the City that he needs to obtain the proper permits and approvals before holding church services on his property.

In 2008, Mr. Salman's church, Harvest Christian Fellowship Community Church, is issued a Building Permit to construct a 2,000 square foot private game room accessory to an existing single family residence. The permit states, "Any other occupancy or use (business, commercial, assembly, church, etc.) is expressly prohibited pursuant to the City of Phoenix Building Code and Zoning Ordinances."

During 2009-2010 church services are held on Mr. Salman's property without proper permits and in violation of safety concerns. As a result, Mr. Salman is cited.

On January 4, 2010, Harvest Christian Fellowship Community Church is found responsible for 96 civil code violations. The Court notes, "[T]he State is not saying the Salmans can't run a church or have worship services at the location, but the State is saying that if they do so, they must do it properly and in accord with the building, fire, and zoning codes."

On August 30, 2010, Mr. Salman was found guilty of 67 Class 1 Misdemeanors. The Court stated, "Everyone is entitled under the United States Constitution to worship as they please. But there is a reason for these codes and that is for public safety. And that, I believe, is all that the State is asking is that the Code violations be rectified."

Mr. Salman appealed his convictions. On June 2, 2011, the Maricopa County Superior Court upheld the convictions and stated, "[T]he Defendant was engaged in public or church activities, and further that Defendant's convictions did not violate his Constitutional right to religious freedom."

The Court sentenced Mr. Salman to serve jail time. He was ordered to report to jail on June 18, 2012. The county jail relies on a Department of Public Safety table of criminal codes to confirm the basis for the incarceration when a person self surrenders. The table did not include the particular charge on Mr. Salman's confinement order. Mr. Salman was, therefore, not incarcerated. The table has been corrected.

On June 28, 2012, a Probation Revocation Arraignment was held alleging violations of Mr. Salman's sentence by twice having a gathering in excess of 12 people on his premises while not in compliance with all ordinances and failing to cooperate with the Court's Financial Screening.
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