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Old 07-09-2012, 01:56 PM
 
986 posts, read 2,509,002 times
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1) The planet and its physical resources are either finite or "finitely renewable," i.e. water can only be recycled or desalinized to a point, and even the amount of sunlight hitting the Earth is limited to half the sphere at a given time. Math tells us there are physical, pragmatic limits to everything on Earth.

2) There are over 7 billion people on Earth, and the population keeps growing by 75 to 80 million per year (exact figures vary). This puts increasing burdens on limited resources like land acreage, energy, water, forests, other species, plus the atmosphere's ability to absorb more CO2 and remain in equilibrium.

3) Today's monetary system is based on loans created from thin air, which must be continuously paid off with interest, leading to more loans and causing the total debt load to grow. All the while, the system is forced to accommodate more people and everyone seems to realize it's a mess of un-payable debt.

Considering all of the above, why do politicians and businesses keep calling for more growth when it's so obviously out of control already? It's like a junkie needing a bigger dose every day. Even those who promote "sustainable growth" must realize it's an oxymoron. How can anything keep getting larger in a finite realm and be sustainable?

"Grim" employment reports state that "job creation barely kept pace with population growth," as if it's perfectly fine for the population to keep growing, lemming-like. This website is full of complaints about overcrowding vs. quality of life in a given city, so why don't more people question the whole growth paradigm? Are they too hooked on the money aspect of the pyramid scheme they're part of?

If you told the people of Guam that their island economy must physically grow forever, it would be an illogical, impossible request. So, why is that same concept (applied to the whole world) any different, except for the time scale to reach consumption overload? It seems people have been delaying austerity and frugality because the world seems "too big to fail." It's large but it's still finite. Symptoms of overload make news all the time.

A related question is: Why do conservatives harp on limits to monetary spending yet treat physical resources as virtually unlimited? "Drill, baby, drill!" (denial of Peak Oil) is a good example. Why don't they make the connection between monetary debt and the physical debt underlying it?

This isn't just a futile rant. Here's a solution to the growth dilemma, which has been discussed for decades outside the mainstream. Words like "recession" and "stagnation" are negatives to classical economists, but in nature they just mean balance. When something that's grown too large for its own good finally stops growing, it should be welcomed, even if the transition isn't easy.

Last edited by ca_north; 07-09-2012 at 02:07 PM..
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:00 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,210,872 times
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I've argued this many times. Have fun. Your mistake is in trying to make it partisan. Obama's biggest accomplishments the last 3 1/2 years has been in re-inflating the markets.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Florida
33,571 posts, read 18,165,778 times
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Because the spending keeps growing.. they want more money to pay the bills on what they pass in congress. . it is a spending gathering each year and programs are added . We have a huge debt to pay and we can't even pay what we have to pay so the debt grows each year.. we spend way more than the government take in on taxes. Big government gobbles up our paychecks with each program they pass.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,822,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
I've argued this many times. Have fun. Your mistake is in trying to make it partisan. Obama's biggest accomplishments the last 3 1/2 years has been in re-inflating the markets.
Your argument is that de-flating the markets or allowing it to go in that direction would be greatness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taratova View Post
Because the spending keeps growing.. they want more money to pay the bills on what they pass in congress...
Are you on Medicare/Medicaid?
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:06 PM
 
5,758 posts, read 11,637,967 times
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As of now, our entire economy is pretty much premised on continuous growth. Think of all the debt out there which depends on future income streams. It's entirely possible on a conceptual level to have a stable/prosperous economy that is steady or even shrinking in "GDP" terms, but we don't have anything like that right now. We require growth, or the system as we have structured it will implode.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,822,592 times
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With overburdening of resources, some kind of implosion is a guarantee. But that doesn't mean that we should be working towards it and make it happen now.
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:18 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,210,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Your argument is that de-flating the markets or allowing it to go in that direction would be greatness?
When bubbles pop, the answer is not to inflate another bubble.
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Texas
37,949 posts, read 17,870,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
When bubbles pop, the answer is not to inflate another bubble.
That's not true. When the dot com bubble burst the housing bubble got us back on our feet... oh wait....
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Old 07-09-2012, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Maine
561 posts, read 505,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_north View Post
The population keeps growing by 75 to 80 million per year (exact figures vary).
You have already answered your own question.
In order to feed ourselves we must increase ("grow") food production to accomodate the population growth. In order to meet the growing demand for everything, we must grow.

It isn't all that complicated.
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Old 07-09-2012, 06:23 PM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,548,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recovering Democrat View Post
You have already answered your own question.
In order to feed ourselves we must increase ("grow") food production to accomodate the population growth. In order to meet the growing demand for everything, we must grow.

It isn't all that complicated.
The concept question was more around the claims for economic growth.

Food is not that large a portion of the overall economy.

As far the economic growth -- it is because of the interest/time-value assigned to money.

Zero interest on the money and no need for economic growth to feed it.

But that would upset a whole lot of money math folks.

Meanwhile the only things in nature which do growth for the sake of growth are:

1. Cancer.
2. The Morbidly Obese.

Not generally a good outcome from either.
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