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coalman - Controlling a market by manipulating the amount of a product available to control prices is distorting the market whether it is done by a single supplier (monopoly) or a group of suppliers (oligopoly). It is not doing business in an open and free market that is the basis of capitalism. This is exactly what Standard Oil did in the early 20th century and why they were broken up into (theoretically) competing companies.
Attempting to control the market is as old as business and is the essence of the difference between an economy and a business. When Adam Smith developed the theory of Capitalism he was well aware that businesses hated the idea of competition and would go to extraordinary lengths, including the issue of government monopolies (East India Company world wide monopoly on Tea in the mid 1700 for example), and direct collusion with competitors (OPEC) to stabilize prices above the market clearing levels. The free market solution to over production is the highest cost suppliers shut down or go out of business and lose their investment until demand increases enough to make their mines profitable. In a free market a positive ROI is NOT guaranteed.
I believe the coal fired power plants originally discussed are being closed because they cannot make a profit under current circumstances let alone if they need to build mercury controls instead of finding coal without this contaminant. Closing the plants is a corporate not a government decision.
That is the point. In a free market the highest cost producers either stop selling or mothball the mine or they do go out of business. In the first case they lose money covering the fixed costs. In the second they lose their investment. There are thousands of abandoned mines that became unprofitable because of a drop in demand for their product or the minerals became more expensive to mine.
The observation that all companies try to control the market says more about just how anti market bias in our supposedly capitalistic economy than anything else. Wall-mart destroys smaller businesses because it is big enough to set its own prices and actually tell it suppliers to charge the smaller stores more for the same items. This is the essence of unfair trade and I am surprised that conservatives tolerate it. Controlling a market is still illegal but completely unenforced as business has bought our government.
The anthracite coal industry lost the home heating market in the 1950's and 60's because heating with oil or natural gas was both cheaper and a lot easier. Neither oil nor gas requires hauling out the ashes. I was using coal to heat a workshop for years after my step father installed oil heat in the house. I would still have a coal stove but I live in a condo and they are effectively forbidden.
Granted they shut all the stuff down leading up to the olympics to put on a happy face but it's back to biz as usual now. I have friends that live there and it's terrible....
I understand...in fact, I live with it daily. My mother lived less than 1/4 mile from a mine and died from emphysema. Being from this area, I know many people whose lives have been impacted by the coal industry both negatively and positively. This incident touched many, many lives; one friend was born two months afterward and never knew her father. I'm not even going to address Black Lung or individual accidents...this is sufficient.
The observation that all companies try to control the market says more about just how anti market bias in our supposedly capitalistic economy than anything else.
Greg you may have an argument if the price wasn't so low, were they all in collusion to get it so low? Of course not and they are all being effected by too much product on the market.
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Wall-mart destroys smaller businesses because it is big enough to set its own prices and actually tell it suppliers to charge the smaller stores more for the same items.
I'm well aware of how Wal Mart operates but I've not seen it shown in a court of law them trying to fix prices on the competitors. It wouldn't surprise me if that were the case because the more you buy the less it costs. Do you think you would get the same the price as me if you came in off the street to pick up coal at the breaker? You'll pay more for it and if the supply is tight enough you as the homeowner wouldn't even be able to get it. Getting back to Wal Mart since it's a single company there is major concerns for me because they can make and then break the manufacturers. Having said that Wal Mart is one the most efficiently run companies there is, there supply and distribution sytem is the envy of most companies that they try to emulate.
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Neither oil nor gas requires hauling out the ashes.
That's what teenagers are for.
Last edited by thecoalman; 07-18-2012 at 06:03 PM..
I've carried out my share of "clinkers." What about kerosene or the Fischer-Tropsch process? Cost prohibitive or still unable to pass EPA requirements? The Great Plains Synfuels Plant in North Dakota has been operating since the early '80s and is still going strong, but is the only plant of its kind. Why? As for Wal-Mart, it may be a great business model, but it's had a negative impact both socially and economically by way of eliminating thousands of small businesses.
Anthracite doesn't klinker unless you're using what they refer to as "red ash" which is a type of anthracite that has a high iron content. Even then it needs to be fired at very high temperature.
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What about kerosene or the Fischer-Tropsch process? Cost prohibitive or still unable to pass EPA requirements?
Unstable oil market, if you have a situation like in 2007 into 2008 they can't compete, it's a risky investment but that will change in the near future.
Anthracite doesn't klinker unless you're using what they refer to as "red ash" which is a type of anthracite that has a high iron content. Even then it needs to be fired at very high temperature.
Unstable oil market, if you have a situation like in 2007 into 2008 they can't compete, it's a risky investment but that will change in the near future.
Coalman!
You are fighting the good fight but you'll never win......I hope they shut down every coal plant in the country next year all at once.....Than they'll know how friggin wrong they are!
I came from Eastern Kentucky. I remember the devastation when the deep mines closed and we all had to move north to the auto factories. My father finally moved our family back and we hard scrabbled the best way we could to survive. Coal has been a boom bust cycle since the fast talking lawyers came into the mountains and bought up the mineral rights from people making promises not delivered. I loved my life in southeastern Kentucky, but the exodus of people from that area because the power of coal did not allow for other industries to come in, has been devastating… and still is. The number of jobs and the exodus of the people has been going on long before Barack Obama ever dreamed of running for President of the United States of America. The export of coal to China will be from the western states because it is cheaper to get the coal out of the ground and closer to the ports… Appalachian cheap coal has long gone. On the financial pages, the coal companies state this. They are more factual when talking to financial reporters and in their annual reports. Time to restore the land and create more healthy ways to live with it. Look to Wendell Berry, a Kentuckian, for inspiration and ideas. We ate a lot of squirrel, rabbits, and chickens. We mostly lived off the land even when my father was able to get a job in the coal mines. We did not have health insurance, there were no higher educational institutions in the area like there are today. Coal will never totally go away, but with President Obama or without President Obama its role will be greatly reduced. There is really not a lot that can be doe to change that for any sustained period. Read the financial pages and the annual reports of The Coal Corporations. I love Southeastern Kentucky. I love the people there… many many of them are my relatives.
We've created a surplus of cheap nat gas.
You can't champion nat gas prices AND decry the death of coal.
I seriously hope most posters here don't have money invested in the market.
Get a clue.
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