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While we will continue to get closer and closer to a society without poverty, and make great strides toward ameliorating the offensive aspects of living in poverty in our society, it'll be an iterative thing.
That sounds nice. However, do you honestly believe that all people will become responsible, unselfish, industrious, or generous over time?
Perhaps you want to read what you replied to again, and rephrase your question. I believe what you probably meant to ask was, "Do you honestly believe that MOST people will become MORE responsible, unselfish, industrious, or generous over time?" Answer: Yes
That black-and-white way of viewing things will bite you in the butt every time Kathryn.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
Is it ironic that Reverend Martin Luther King Jr might very well disagree with you?
He surely wouldn't have agreed with your offensive position in this discussion.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
More excuse making.
More over-the-top self-serving misdirection.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
The NY Times article says that 49% of Middle Class people will retire poor or near poor. There is no excuse for 49% of middle class people to retire in or near poverty.
"An edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring" - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
There is something wrong with our culture when people are praised for making poor financial choices while others excuse those poor choices and hurl accusations at bogeymen, which merely justifies and reinforces more poor choices.
No one praises anyone for making poor financial choices, or excuses them. You just made that up because you had no way to legitimately counter what I wrote. Tsk tsk.
"An edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring" - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Dr. King was talking about jobs - plentiful, well-paying jobs - well-paying because they reflect a more righteous sharing of the profits from work done between the employers and employees, that actually afford workers the resources to actually save for retirement as your petulant expectations would demand, instead of living hand-to-mouth hoping to pay "most" of their bills each month. Dr. King challenged capitalism to become more compassionate and moral. This even found its way into the Republican lexicon, as compassionate conservatism, but unfortunately, in the battle for the GOP between compassionate conservatism and selfish, egoistic greed-mongers, the latter won. That's what's promulgating these same problems Dr. King spoke about fifty years ago.
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Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer
Maybe you should listen to your heart instead of what is written by some one else in a study bible.
And what you're saying is that your heart tells you to be callous? That your religion teaches you to scorn your neighbors and lord over them based on their misfortune? What is it that you're actually trying to say there?
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
This is about choices. Don't be a part of the problem and make excuses for poor choices.
Putting aside that if it were all that easy then there wouldn't be a problem (freemkt has already burst that bubble of yours), what part of the solution are you trying to be? Assuming that everyone who isn't financially successful in our society was in that position because of the nasty behaviors you so callously and carelessly ascribe to them, then what is your solution to the societal problem? What do you, as a self-defined worthy member of society, propose society actually do, in detail, to alleviate this situation? How would you ensure that the kinds of behaviors that you think would address the concern are conducted?
Of course, it's academic, because life is far more than money, and money is far more complex than the Randian fantasy would allow for.
I'm saying that minimum wage workers have a hard enough time paying the rent on time - forget about buying a house - and keeping food on the table, that I don't expect them to invest $1 a day...especially if they start out in the hole with student loans, or if they have extended periods of not being able to work and thus having no income.
Why on earth would minimum wage workers have student loans?
If someone has a college education and spends their entire life on minimum wage - then they have serious issues that they need to address with themselves.
People in all spectrums are making choices. The majority of people in poverty have cable tv - have a cell phone - have a DVD player - have internet access - have a video game system... Choices are being made at all levels to allocate money towards non-essential items.
The fact that the NY Times is claiming that 49% - HALF of all Middle Class people will retire in or near poverty is sign of these bad choices.
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Originally Posted by bUU
He surely wouldn't have agreed with your offensive position in this discussion.
More over-the-top self-serving misdirection.
"An edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring" - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
No one praises anyone for making poor financial choices, or excuses them. You just made that up because you had no way to legitimately counter what I wrote. Tsk tsk.
"An edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring" - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Dr. King was talking about jobs - plentiful, well-paying jobs - well-paying because they reflect a more righteous sharing of the profits from work done between the employers and employees, that actually afford workers the resources to actually save for retirement as your petulant expectations would demand, instead of living hand-to-mouth hoping to pay "most" of their bills each month. Dr. King challenged capitalism to become more compassionate and moral. This even found its way into the Republican lexicon, as compassionate conservatism, but unfortunately, in the battle for the GOP between compassionate conservatism and selfish, egoistic greed-mongers, the latter won. That's what's promulgating these same problems Dr. King spoke about fifty years ago.
And what you're saying is that your heart tells you to be callous? That your religion teaches you to scorn your neighbors and lord over them based on their misfortune? What is it that you're actually trying to say there?
Putting aside that if it were all that easy then there wouldn't be a problem (freemkt has already burst that bubble of yours), what part of the solution are you trying to be? Assuming that everyone who isn't financially successful in our society was in that position because of the nasty behaviors you so callously and carelessly ascribe to them, then what is your solution to the societal problem? What do you, as a self-defined worthy member of society, propose society actually do, in detail, to alleviate this situation? How would you ensure that the kinds of behaviors that you think would address the concern are conducted?
Of course, it's academic, because life is far more than money, and money is far more complex than the Randian fantasy would allow for.
#1 Don't be a baby...you are "offended" that I suggest that a REVEREND "might" consider Jesus's words better than his own. Grow up.
#2 Don't assume what MLK would and wouldn't like in 2013. You don't know.
MLK also spoke of doing your job to the best of your ability and being responsible. Being responsible clearly isn't happening.
It seems to me like you might be someone making bad financial choices - and you don't want to look in the mirror so you point to others as the fault of your own poor lot in life.
For 75% of Americans to have less than $30,000 in retirement accounts is a shame upon our buy it now culture.
$1 a day put into CDs would have yielded over $100K for a guy 18 to 65 years of age today. The S&P 500 index fund with a dollar a day would have yielded over 290K. It comes down to personal choices and you justify poor choices, because it is easier to blame others.
Whatever your life's work is, do it well. A man should do his job so well that the living, the dead, and the unborn could do it no better.
A nation or civilization that continues to produce softminded men purchases its own spiritual death on the installment plan.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Why on earth would minimum wage workers have student loans?
Heaven forbid that they presume to aspire to the kind of life you and I enjoy.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
Don't be a baby...
Don't be a name-caller.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
you are "offended" that I suggest that a REVEREND "might" consider Jesus's words better than his own. Grow up.
The fact that you resort to rude grandstanding rather that quoting Dr. King's own word to defend your indefensible nonsense is very telling. Dr. King made very clear, in his own words, that your perversion of Jesus' word is without merit.
Face it: You have no defense for your indefensibly immoral perspective. It is you who needs to grow up and stop presuming that the world revolves around you, and that everyone who's circumstances are deficient are miscreants.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
MLK also spoke of doing your job to the best of your ability and being responsible. Being responsible clearly isn't happening.
Just restating your claim doesn't add it any credibility. Your offensive presumption that half to three quarters of Americans are irresponsible people is ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
It seems to me like you might be someone making bad financial choices
It seems to me like you might be someone making vacuous comments and desperately scrambling to defend your immoral and otherwise corrupted perspectives. How about you stick to the topic instead of engaging in childish casting of aspersions at other posters (especially posters who may be no different from you other than the fact that I'm directing a moral perspective toward you)?
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
It comes down to personal choices and you justify poor choices, because it is easier to blame others.
Who am I blaming? I'm blaming all of us, including myself. Meanwhile, you're blaming those who have been less fortunate than you, refusing to take personal accountability for your portion of the responsibility for the fact that our society is twice as economically unjust as it was a generation ago. Who's making personal choices that are making this worse for those least fortunate? Those who place their own personal greed over what's fair and just. That's who.
Again: The majority of those 75% are upstanding people who simply haven't been as lucky as you. Stop spewing your vacuous vitriol at them, and start adopting a more moral perspective toward their circumstances.
I guess the 25% that did save will have a comfortable retirement.
The 75% that were "unlucky" get to live on government welfare programs.
I think that's the question, isn't it? Isn't the whole point of the immoral "let's bash the poorer people" perspective -- to advocate for eviscerating whatever would otherwise be there as a buffer against those less fortunate dying prematurely due to inadequate satisfaction of basic needs? Isn't that really the reason for callously marginalizing those who aren't able to get ahead in our society, even when society is structured to ensure that a certain percentage (a percentage that has doubled in a generation) will fail to succeed regardless of their efforts?
I think that's the question, isn't it? Isn't the whole point of the immoral "let's bash the poorer people" perspective -- to advocate for eviscerating whatever would otherwise be there as a buffer against those less fortunate dying prematurely due to inadequate satisfaction of basic needs? Isn't that really the reason for callously marginalizing those who aren't able to get ahead in our society, even when society is structured to ensure that a certain percentage (a percentage that has doubled in a generation) will fail to succeed regardless of their efforts?
Well that's a pretty big percentage (75%) and shows that Americans truly don't have their priorities in order.
We are called "consumers" and our economy needs people spending on "stuff" to keep it going.
Can't save and spend at the same time..can you ?
The US has a history of little savings and I think it got worse when we turned from a producer nation into a consumer nation.
Well that's a pretty big percentage (75%) and shows that Americans truly don't have their priorities in order.
That much is certain. However, the number is so large that it shows that the failure is with the system, not with individuals. And again, the fact that economic inequality has doubled in a generation very clearly points out the nature of the failure.
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Originally Posted by HappyTexan
We are called "consumers" and our economy needs people spending on "stuff" to keep it going. Can't save and spend at the same time..can you ?
You also cannot employ workers, or have a fighting chance of paying them a reasonable salary, if consumers go away. There is no faster way to nuke the economy than to reduce consumer spending. So the challenge is to come up with a way of changing the system, so that you don't flush human beings down the toilet just to make your math work, and adjust the whole system so that all the energy goes toward fostering and capitalizing on more than enough opportunities to pay your own way in society.
Let's hope it doesn't get that bad. Let's hope that selfishness and avarice are pushed back rather than prevail utterly.
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