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Old 08-21-2012, 08:47 PM
 
29,409 posts, read 21,967,571 times
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Your list of links says nothing about violating any treaties. Your one that does asks questions but clarifies nothing. Now you want to bring in security council whining about stuff to boot?

I'm not going to go off on some argument that will never end. The topic of the thread is Egypt put anti aircraft into the sinai and what ramifications that may have.

Egypt and Israel will most likely hash it out. And when that happens others will jump in too. Do you think we will sit idly by? We may but I doubt it. There is a reason we are in the middle east and no it's not to "stand by Israel". Theres oil in dem dar fields and it's traded in US dollars. Anything that could cause that to change we will defend. That has been our foreign policy since the seventies and will continue to be so until we get off the petro dollar.
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:48 AM
Status: "Wishing all the best of health and peace!" (set 10 days ago)
 
43,458 posts, read 44,172,248 times
Reputation: 20472
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
Sure they have nuclear weapons. And the fact that Israel has broken the treaty is relevant to the thread.
The topic of the thread is that Egypt (not Israel!) broke the treaty!
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:54 AM
 
29,981 posts, read 42,856,313 times
Reputation: 12828
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
I would say that war is looming boldy..........

"Egypt has set up anti-aircraft missiles in the Sinai Desert, without notifying Israel and in violation of the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, according to Israeli reports, even as Egypt’s new leader has seized control of Egypt’s vast bureaucracy. Israeli officials are not speaking publicly about the missile transfer that is only the latest and perhaps the most serious of actions by Egypt’s new Islamic regime that may signal the imminent failure of the Egyptian-Israeli treaty"

Fears That Egypt and Iran May Draw Closer As Egypt Reportedly Puts Missiles on Border | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com

Our foreign aid dollars (read tax dollars) at work! Yeah Obama administration! Winning!

Flashback: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/16/wo...-say.html?_r=1

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Old 08-22-2012, 07:31 AM
 
25,803 posts, read 16,451,635 times
Reputation: 15993
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
That is odd since it is the arab states who attacked Israel post WWII and they were also attacked in the arab-israeli war in 1973. So in your mind a bad neighbor is one who you attack and they fight back. I guess that is the mindset your posting from anyway.
I knew it would happen someday, but I actually agree with you.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:34 AM
 
25,803 posts, read 16,451,635 times
Reputation: 15993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezus View Post
Imagine setting up anti-aircraft missiles on one's own territory for defense...what a radical idea.
Hmmm, let's see. The Muslim Bros take over the government and their first official act is to deploy missiles in the desert against a signed treaty.

The very first thing I would do if I was planning aggression against another country would be to build my defense network.

The Israelis are not going to overlook one tiny detail of that treaty without a measured response.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,660,138 times
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Considering the Sinai is between Egypt's population centers and their likeliest attacker this make a lot of sense. Why are we complaining about a very rational decision?
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:41 AM
 
25,803 posts, read 16,451,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
Considering the Sinai is between Egypt's population centers and their likeliest attacker this make a lot of sense. Why are we complaining about a very rational decision?
Because crazy people have their fingers on those triggers. I wouldn't trust the Muslim Bros with bows are arrows, much less missile systems.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,105,746 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
Considering the Sinai is between Egypt's population centers and their likeliest attacker this make a lot of sense. Why are we complaining about a very rational decision?
Hell if I know.

Wondering as well...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
The topic of the thread is that Egypt (not Israel!) broke the treaty!
It is Egypt's right to abrogate a treaty.

Where is this treaty? Is there a link to it? How do we know Egypt violated the treaty? I mean international relations, international law, treaties, foreign policy, that's what I taught in class.

Just because Egypt puts air defense missiles in the Sinai it does not logically follow that they violated a treaty.

ADA comes in many different flavors, and treaties tend to be very specific, not generalized. If the treaty truly does prohibit air defense missiles, does it bar all, or does it only bar certain types of air defense missiles?

What about the radar systems? Does the treaty bar all dish-antennae/arrays or just certain types (meaning limited to a certain wattage or power-range)?

You do understand that just because Egypt parks a radar unit associated with a certain type of air defense missile, say ZSU-24, it doesn't mean there are ZSU-24s in the Sinai -- it only means that the radar used with that system is in the Sinai.

I understand what the topic is, I just don't see a lot of evidence support the claim that a treaty was violated.

Diplomatically...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Egypt and Israel will most likely hash it out. And when that happens others will jump in too. Do you think we will sit idly by?
The past is not necessarily indicative of the future.

Iraq of the past was led by a Sunni government, but Iraq of the present is governed by Shi'a.

What interest do the Shi'a have with Sunni Egypt and Jewish Israel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
I keep asking the same question as you about the treaties they are in violation of and nobody seems to be able to answer.

Well they know who "broke the window" in this case. Egypt has violated their peace treaty by putting those guns in the sinai.
Well, missiles, not guns. There's a very real difference.

Differentiating...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
What if Isreal didn't have the sole super power for a sugar daddy?
Then there would be stability in the region.

You want peace? 30 days after the US cuts off all aid to Israel in all forms, you'll have peace.

Logically...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
We have the only aircraft that capable of taking them out, undetected.
All countries have that capability.

Militarily....

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy View Post
See my post about the Six Day War and see why all that air cover will do very little good if all the troops in use are Egyptians.

I might demote you to Corporal, so you could be like Hitler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy View Post
I wonder how many of the Egyptians in control right now remember the Six Day War and how embarrassed Egypt had to have been. They were sure they were ready for the Israelis, in every way, with all that highly regarded Russian armor and planes and they lost their butt so completely because the Israelis had much better soldiers. Sherman tanks left from WW II tore the best Soviet armor available all to hell. I wonder how many of those missiles have a chance of being fired with Egyptians doing the firing.
What do you think I was doing in Egypt?

Let us review the facts:

1] Egypt fought in the same war-fighting style as the US and Britain.

2] Israel fought in the same style as the Soviet Union

3] Egypt crushed Israel

4] Golda Meier threatened to go nuclear unless Nixon relented and gave Israel supplies and satellite imagery.

5] Israel was getting crushed because Egyptian anti-armor units were wiping out Israeli armored units; Israel air power was unable to destroy the Egyptian anti-armor units because Egypt's air defenses were taking out Israeli aircraft; and Israel could not locate Egypt's ADA units.

6] Using the satellite imagery provided by the US in order to prevent the use of Israeli nuclear weapons, the Israelis located the ADA FDCs, penetrated the rear area and destroyed them, then proceeded to destroy the radar units, and that allowed the Israelis to attack Egyptian anti-armor units, which then changed the tide of battle.

I spent 2 weeks in the classroom breaking down every minute detail of the Yom Kippur War to Egyptian officers and senior non-coms. Then we were in the classroom half the day, and the field half the day for 2 weeks. Then we were in the field for 2 weeks. I simply re-enacted the Yom Kippur War, at least those actions that took place in the rear area.

Some nights we only slept 1 or 2 hours, because the training was very intense. I'm no different now than I was then, so you can imagine.....You #$%#%%%$ morons do it again.....until they got it right to my satisfaction. I don't know what they thought of me, but I doubt they had anything nice to say. Like I really care anyway, my job was to train them for combat, not make friends and eat falafels.

I worked really hard to train the Egyptians, so yeah, I'll be a little miffed (and embarrassed) if they don't perform.

And in spite of what you believe, Sherman tanks were not shooting anything. The Jordanians and Syrians withdrew to the high ground.....

....a big clue to battlefield tactics which created a panic in the US Army.

It was simply assumed that because Arab States bought Soviet equipment then they must use Soviet tactical doctrine -- an non-sequitur.

And it was simply assumed that because Israel bought equipment from Britain and the US, that Israel fought using Western War-Fighting tactics.

It turned out to be the opposite: the Arabs fought like Brits and Americans and the Israelis were using a modified Wehrmacht/Soviet War-Fighting style.

That, (that mistake based on false assumptions) is what led to the formulation of AirLand Battle 2000.

Had NATO gone at the Warsaw Pact, NATO would have lost for any number of reasons, but primarily due to the fact that the US did not understand Soviet War-Fighting style and tactical doctrines.

AirLand Battle 2000 is Soviet War-Fighting. Sure, it retains some elements of Western-style, mostly logistical elements, and there's a slight difference in air defense doctrines, but since 1986 with the implementation of Division '86, the US fights just like the Soviet Union. It works. Look at the Gulf War.

Tactically...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by oberon_1 View Post
Do you understand the meaning of a peace agreement?
I understand that the absence of conflict is not peace.

Philosophically...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
So you would prefer a Jewish Tribal State over an Islamic Tribal State. I choose to let them deal with it.
I support self-determination, since that is what I advocate and since I am not an hypocrite.

Preferring...

Mircea
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Old 08-23-2012, 04:27 PM
Status: "Wishing all the best of health and peace!" (set 10 days ago)
 
43,458 posts, read 44,172,248 times
Reputation: 20472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post

Where is this treaty? Is there a link to it? How do we know Egypt violated the treaty? I mean international relations, international law, treaties, foreign policy, that's what I taught in class.

Just because Egypt puts air defense missiles in the Sinai it does not logically follow that they violated a treaty.

ADA comes in many different flavors, and treaties tend to be very specific, not generalized. If the treaty truly does prohibit air defense missiles, does it bar all, or does it only bar certain types of air defense missiles?

What about the radar systems? Does the treaty bar all dish-antennae/arrays or just certain types (meaning limited to a certain wattage or power-range)?

You do understand that just because Egypt parks a radar unit associated with a certain type of air defense missile, say ZSU-24, it doesn't mean there are ZSU-24s in the Sinai -- it only means that the radar used with that system is in the Sinai.

I understand what the topic is, I just don't see a lot of evidence support the claim that a treaty was violated.

Diplomatically...

Mircea


What do you think I was doing in Egypt?

Let us review the facts:

1] Egypt fought in the same war-fighting style as the US and Britain.

2] Israel fought in the same style as the Soviet Union

3] Egypt crushed Israel

4] Golda Meier threatened to go nuclear unless Nixon relented and gave Israel supplies and satellite imagery.

5] Israel was getting crushed because Egyptian anti-armor units were wiping out Israeli armored units; Israel air power was unable to destroy the Egyptian anti-armor units because Egypt's air defenses were taking out Israeli aircraft; and Israel could not locate Egypt's ADA units.

6] Using the satellite imagery provided by the US in order to prevent the use of Israeli nuclear weapons, the Israelis located the ADA FDCs, penetrated the rear area and destroyed them, then proceeded to destroy the radar units, and that allowed the Israelis to attack Egyptian anti-armor units, which then changed the tide of battle.

I spent 2 weeks in the classroom breaking down every minute detail of the Yom Kippur War to Egyptian officers and senior non-coms. Then we were in the classroom half the day, and the field half the day for 2 weeks. Then we were in the field for 2 weeks. I simply re-enacted the Yom Kippur War, at least those actions that took place in the rear area.

Tactically...

Mircea
1) The peace treaty between Egypt-Israel called for a demilitarized Sinai (a restriction on the forces Egypt could place on the Sinai peninsula, especially within 20–40 km from Israel). The question is what are the exact words of the treaty used to define exactly what military equipment can be brought into the Sinai and that I don't know.

2) I believe you are discussing the Yom Kipper War in 1973 and the person that you quoted was talking about the Six Day War in 1967.
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