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Do you know how many IB students IN THE WORLD sat the IB SL Further Mathematics exam last time I checked?
89
IN THE WORLD!
Do you know how many U.S. IB public high schools offer IB SL Further Mathematics as a course?
Maybe 2.
Our school had a student they allowed to take the IB Further Mathematics exam without being taught the course. (hey why not, the taxpayers are paying for it!). Want to know what he scored? A '2'.
But you're not an actual admissions officer, that's what I was trying to get at. Thank you for your clarification. However, based on your experience, I'm sure you are interested in seeing students get a fair shot at gaining admission to the university of their choice, yes?
Perhaps you should read some of Jay Mathews' Class Struggle columns where he lambasts college admissions officers as being ignorant and guilty of "discriminating" against IB's SL exams. Here's the most recent one I could find, but he has written several:
It should be noted that the co-author of Mathews' book Supertest, is IBO's Deputy Director General, Ian Hill, and that the book was published by Open Court which is owned by a former IBNA Board member, Blouke Carus.
Mr. Mathews' is also an annual guest speaker at IBO's Annual Conference. Last year, the conference was held at the Fountainbleau in Miami. Not what it used to be in terms of former 5 star hotels, but not bad. I read somewhere the Fountainbleau had a nasty bedbug outbreak right after that IB conference .... LOL!
If I'm understanding this correctly, the argument is not that the IB program is inferior, its that some schools want students to take the AP test (in some subjects?) in order to get college credit. The three required (2 year) IB exams are not the problem, I am assuming he is referring to the other courses. He is complaining that students who have already passed the IB test have to pay money to sit for another test. It's redundant, since they have already passed the IB version of the exam.
He says it has been proven that the courses are similar in rigor, which is the way I've always understood it:
IB students are not having a problem being admitted to good colleges, they are not seen differently in that regard. What he is talking about what students have to do to receive credit after admittance, right? The IB students have to take an AP exam to get the credit in some schools because they have no formalized policy in place for the other IB courses.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Keep in mind that CU Boulder is unusual in that it awards credit to Standard Level IB exam scores. Many universities do not. I've already posted UCLA's policy. The UC system (state schools) DO NOT award college credit for IB Standard Level exams.
And again, IB students are LIMITED to only 3 HL classes in 2 years.
AP does not limit students' access to college-level courses/exams.
No, thee curriculum in the classes are similar, if a kid took a subject in IB they are likely to do well on the AP exam. The classes are just as High Level. Both will prepare you to pass a college freshman final in the subject.
What you are talking about is the College Board AP exam being more recognized in terms of awarding college credit outside the 3 classes. In practical terms what this means is that IB kids have to take an extra test to get credit after they've been admitted. But they do pass the AP tests by and large, no additional instruction is necessary outside maybe a few subjects, since IB does not offer the equivalent of every single advanced AP class available.
IB's HL English, Foreign Language, and Math are deficient. They are NOT on par with AP.
And IB History. Most U.S. Universities will not award advanced course credit for HL HoA because the content is simply not comparable in terms of knowledge learned. Unis like Adelphi here on Long Island, will award 3 elective credits for an exam result of '5' or higher.
I recognize that you may be an expert at kvetching. I don't see you taking on any real issue though.
How about a real issue, like, why do we have a federal dept of education, if education is states issue?
The Washington Post, The New York Times and Newsday. If you aren't interested in the topic of this thread, please start another one where you can discuss what you are interested in (although abolishing the Fed Dept. of Ed get's a big round of applause from me.)
I looked at the chart. So did you. You noted less credit and lower placement from IB exams. You skipped IB's deficiency in English, though.
As stated, I was only looking at exams in common. IB does not offer the equivalent of Language and Composition. The IB exams is equivalent to Literature and Composition. There are plenty of subjects offered in AP that are not in IB, and there are plenty of subjects offered in IB that are not in AP.
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IB HL Math also yields LESS credit unless both the HL and Further classes and exams are taken.
Again, I was comparing comparable exams. HL&F is the equivalent class and exam to AP Calculus BC. They are both treated equally.
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And again, IB students are LIMITED to only 3 HL classes in 2 years.
AP does not limit students' access to college-level courses/exams.
And again, this is not true. And again, comparing IB to AP is comparing apples to Cadillacs.
IB student's opportunities for college credit and advanced placement are not limited to only 3 HL classes. First, motivated IB students can take 4HL and 2SL instead of the 3/3 split. Second, some colleges offer college credit for SL language (and some, like U of Iowa, also do for SL math exams). So right there just in the 2 year IB program students are forced to take 3-6 exams that, if passed, will give them college credit and advanced placement on par with equivalent AP exams.
But that's just the baseline. IB does not limit its students to that in anyway. Truly exceptional IB students (every IB student I've ever met was at minimum simply exceptional) can take AP classes and/or exams in the years prior to IB, they can take AP classes and/or exams in addition to their IB classes in the 10th and 11th grades, they can enroll in summer college classes / programs and earn college credit directly from a college while in high school, etc. I know plenty of IB students who took and got credit for 4 HL exams as well as took 3 (or more) AP classes and/or exams and got credit for them too.
Since you have decided to address the issue from a first-person, hearsay, anonymous experience rather than referencing actual facts, regulations or laws governing public education, please don't take offense at any of the following questions which will call into question your claims:
1. Was there an application/pre-qualification process to be admitted to your particular HS?
2. What year did you graduate HS?
3. Did you earn the IB Diploma? If yes, what was your overall score?
4. Did you take TOK?
5. Of the courses you listed above, IB does not offer either Politics & Government or Statistics. Were your other courses SL or HL? How many HL? How many SL?
6. Did your school district or your parents pay for the IB/AP exam fees?
Thank you.
Well, based upon the definition of "hearsay", me providing my own personal experiences would not hearsay. Anonymous experience, yes. Hearsay, no. But to answer your questions:
1) Yes. There was an application and exam process to get into the program.
2) 2005
3) Yes. Don't remember the score. It's been over 7 years since I actually looked at it.
4) My hand cramps up just thinking about that course. Allll the writing.
5) The Statistics AP exam is something I believe I took after SL Advanced Mathematics, P&G was part of a class that fulfilled a state requirement so it may have been something specialized for/by my school for the IB students. The rest are a mix of HL and SL. I'm not even going to try to remember each specific class and what levels they were.
6. Neither. I paid for my own IB and AP exam fees.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
My experience was also great. I got my diploma overseas and we had kids from over 50 countries in the school, mostly kids from diplomat families. We also took other exams alongside the IB ones. When kids joined in from US, they'd typically have to repeat the year they had completed US to get to the same level with everyone else. Our computer science class was the first such HS class I the world. Pretty cool.
I had the opportunity to go oversees but because of my home environment, I couldn't. ((Supplementing the household income and food while doing all of the chores for my disabled single father))
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
A 3? Many selective colleges offer credit only for scores of 5 and sometimes 4. Credit for scores of 3 are generally only offered by colleges that have a heavy emphasis on inclusiveness instead of academic rigor.Many AP students participate in the extracurriculars anyway. Try getting into a selective college without heavy extracurricular involvement, including leadership positions.
Okay. So that's a common between AP and IB. Sometimes a college will take a three, sometimes they won't.
Sounds like their mission statement is "We ensure that students have basic common sense".
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Then why have we seen a lack of critical thinking from the IB proponents here in this thread when the actual facts posted show that IB is considered to be inferior to AP by colleges and universities, and by IB's own description of IB as a college prep program, NOT a college-level course program?
Which is why most IB students take AP exams on either supplemented AP classes or based upon their IB classes. Is that a bad thing for IB? No. It just means that, just like in every education track, you'll have people doing the bare minimum to pass and those who over-achieve.
You might even be surprised to find out that IB students are kings and queens of procrastination.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
I went to IB and there was not a hint of politics in their teaching. You have been lied to.
They're reading more into the words than is actually there. Apparently acknowledging that "different from you is not always wrong" is a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by LIobserver
Based upon the original creation for this programme, it is safe to assume that there are and have indeed been communist overtones over the years, plenty of year of fascist families, no doubt elitis snobbery, absolutely attempts at political indocrtination, even some Hitler Jugend/cult like thinkers, and finally sponsors of terrorists, since all these students coming into these IB schools are children of diplomats.
Huh?
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Originally Posted by LIobserver
The respect factor comes into play when in order to get along together, they had to first teach respect for the strangness of the others cultures, telling the students, everyone can be right.
The "strangness of others cultures"[sic]? What? Telling students that everyone can be right?
What?
Are you implying that the concept of teaching "Not every culture is the exact same" is bad?
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Originally Posted by LIobserver
For this reason above, IB is not FIT to come into America and shovel the "everyone can be right" crap
In case you may not have noticed, but not all cultural differences (from your American "standard") are inherently wrong.
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Originally Posted by LIobserver
because we as a nation are able to teach our students the generosity of America, her benevolence, her tolerance, her respect for other cultures while at the same time teaching pride and patriotism for this great land known as the USA, thank you very much.
Uh... huh...
Now, considering that IB does the exact same thing you preach, what's the problem? Rhetorical question. Calling the normalcies of other cultures "strange" and stating that understanding other cultures is "'everyone can be right' crap" is not showing benevolence, tolerance, nor respect for other cultures.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
The point is that IB students are LIMITED to ONLY 3 HL (college level) IB courses and exams.
AP does NOT limit students.
Honestly, I do see the limitations of taking some AP classes versus a learning track that develops a well-rounded student. If you want to see IB as less than AP, then just consider IB to complement AP's amazing glory.
I, for one, am extremely appreciative that I was provided an environment that actually challenged me in every class (even my best subjects) rather than being bored in regular classes and waiting in anticipation for my advanced classes.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
IB students who wish to reach higher and challenge themselves more MUST take additional AP courses and exams. Several IB proponents have stated exactly so in this thread.
To be fair, I'm not an IB proponent. I'm merely a former student who enjoyed the program and don't completely understand all the hate.
But as I previously said, there are all kinds of different people going through IB; some lazier than others. Hence some take additional AP classes, some don't.
HL&F is the equivalent class and exam to AP Calculus BC. They are both treated equally.
So, would that be 2 of the 3 HL classes IB students are limited to?
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IB student's opportunities for college credit and advanced placement are not limited to only 3 HL classes. First, motivated IB students can take 4HL and 2SL instead of the 3/3 split.
One more? Okay... the limit is 4 HL classes in 2 years. There is NO LIMIT on AP classes/exams.
Time and time again in this thread, IB proponents have posted that IB students have to take ADDITIONALAP classes/exams to challenge themselves further than what IB offers.
What do you IB proponents NOT get about that?
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