Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn
The 2nd amendment is simple and clear: For such-and-such reasons, ordinary people's right to own and carry guns and other such weapons can't be taken away or restricted.
The people who wrote and ratified the 2nd, could have put in exceptions for "more than ten guns per household", or "Feds can't restrict guns but states still can", or "except around schools or post offices", etc. But they didn't. And that omission was careful and deliberate.
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You are actually wrong my friend. The second amendment was not a limitation on the individual states, it was merely a limitation on the federal government. In fact, almost the entirety of the constitution actually is only designed to limit the federal government. The only parts of the constitution that technically limit the states, are the ones specifically stated in the constitution. Such as tariffs, currency, and regulating interstate commerce.
The second amendment applying to the states didn't come until the 14th amendment. Where section 1 says
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If the Bill of Rights applied to the states, then what do you think the privileges and immunities of the citizens of the United States means?
And the 14th amendment is actually an illegally ratified part of the constitution. If anyone had the balls enough to look over the history of the 14th amendment, you must come to that same realization.[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by plates
Switzerland is a special case as they are the only true neutral country in the world.
I used Europe (at least the European Union) because it is a large amount of people cover many countries and because it it probably the best case to look at because the lack of gun violence crosses borders.
How can you explain Southern states that have the most lenient laws but have a lot of crime?
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It seems to me, that the rational basis for your argument against guns is simply illogical.
You say that Switzerland is a special case, since it is a neutral country. Why would being neutral have anything to do with gun violence? I mean, we fought against Japan in WWII, and it has the lowest crime rate in the world.
If you look at Europe, you see vast disparities in rates of gun violence, regardless of their varying degrees of gun control. Eastern Europe has had very few guns in the hands of its citizenry since the formation of the Soviet Union, but Eastern Europe tends to have very high rates of crime.
The reality is, Gun control is not a good predictor for the amount of violence in a society. Just compare these two tables, and lets pull out some notables.
Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lets pull the top 10 countries by number of guns per 100 people that are developed nations, then their corresponding murder rates.
United States = 88.8 guns per 100 people, 4.2 homicides per 100,000 people.
Switzerland = 45.7 guns per 100 people, .7 homicides per 100,000 people.
Finland = 32 guns per 100 people, 2.2 homicides per 100,000 people.
Sweden = 31.6 guns per 100 people, 1.0 homicides per 100,000 people.
Norway = 31.3 guns per 100 people, .6 homicides per 100,000 people.
France = 31.2 guns per 100 people, 1.1 homicides per 100,000 people.
Canada = 30.8 guns per 100 people, 1.6 homicides per 100,000 people.
Austria = 30.4 guns per 100 people, .6 homicides per 100,000 people.
Germany = 30.3 guns per 100 people, .8 homicides per 100,000 people.
Iceland = 30.3 guns per 100 people, .3 homicides per 100,000 people.
Lets go backwards, developed nations with fewest guns and their murder rates(I put in 12 not 10, because you might disagree on how developed they are).
Japan = .6 guns per 100 people, .4 homicides per 100,000 people.
South Korea = 1.1 guns per 100 people, 2.6 homicides per 100,000 people.
Poland = 1.3 guns per 100 people, 1.1 homicides per 100,000 people.
Netherlands = 3.9 guns per 100 people, 1.1 homicides per 100,000 people.
India = 4.2 guns per 100 people, 3.4 homicides per 100,000 people.
China = 4.9 guns per 100 people, 1 homicides per 100,000 people.
Hungary = 5.5 guns per 100 people, 1.3 homicides per 100,000 people.
Ukraine = 6.6 guns per 100 people, 5.2 homicides per 100,000 people.
Brazil = 8 guns per 100 people, 21 homicides per 100,000 people.
Portugal = 8.5 guns per 100 people, 1.2 homicides per 100,000 people.
Ireland = 8.6 guns per 100 people, 1.2 homicides per 100,000 people.
Russia = 8.9 guns per 100 people, 10.2 homicides per 100,000 people.
Just for reference, the average number of murders in the ten countries with the most guns is 1.31.
The average number of murders in the other countries I listed was 4.1(more than three times higher). Even if you take out Brazil and Russia, the average still comes out to be 1.85.
My point is, if I was to play a game with you and instead of telling you the name of the country, I simply told you what its gun ownership rate was, then I asked you to tell me if it had above-average or below average murder rates and/or violent crime rates. What percentage of the time do you think you would guess correctly its murder rate or violent crime rate? I mean, there are about 200 countries in the world. Do you think the 100 countries with the most gun control laws have lower homicide rates or the 100 countries with the least gun control laws?
The facts show that there is basically no strong correlation between gun ownership and murder. There is not a strong correlation between gun ownership and violent crime.
The same goes for the United States. Some states have higher rates of violent crime than others. You might argue that southern states have higher murder rates than New England states. But does that have anything to do with guns?
Well, the ten states with the lowest murder rates for 2010 are, New Hampshire, Vermont, Iowa, Idaho, Wyoming, North Dakota, Minnesota, Maine, Hawaii, and Utah.
Of those ten states, eight allow concealed carry permits. Vermont(which has the second lowest murder rate in the country) doesn't even require a permit to concealed carry. According to the Brady Campaign to prevent gun violence, nine of the ten states score in the weakest gun laws category on their website. Only Minnesota doesn't score in the weakest gun law category, they score in the second weakest, of five tiers.
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence
Again, it would be impossible for me to tell you anything about the gun laws of a state, and for you to accurately tell me if its murder rate was above or below average. So to pretend that guns have absolutely anything to do with murder rates or violent crime rates, is either stupidity or ignorance.
The truth is, if you tried to find out what actually caused higher murder rates. You would be better off looking at poverty rates, percentage of minorities, political corruption, and most popular television shows. I'm sure those have a much higher correlation factor.
In my view, I would love a world without guns. But that perfect world could only exist if people were perfect. The problem is, people aren't perfect, far from it.
I always pose a question. If I was a 5' tall petite woman, would I feel safe walking around certain areas of this country at night? Of course not. So then the question is, would I feel safer if no one had a gun, or if everyone had a gun?
If I was a young woman living alone in a house. I'm going to lock my doors, and feel insecure about my safety. But would I feel more secure if everyone in the world had a gun(which includes me), or if no one in the world had a gun?
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